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Except your whole argument is “the big black ball didn’t come from her horn therefore it’s the same mist seen in the comic.”
According to Lauren Faust, NMM was Luna. The comic was written by a third-party years later. Those are the facts.
Uh, screaming in terror? You’re misremembering things. Right after the black ball materialized, her eyes went wide and she was engulfed. Cue transformation sequence.
Occam’s Razor is this: Lauren Faust wrote it that it was Luna, not some other creature. The comic series and Journal of the Two Sisters were written years after the fact, and were written by different people. And given that show canon supersedes everything else, the later episodes in which she described herself as Nightmare Moon, and said it was she that did those actions means it’s not some “nightmare force” that the comic writer thought up.
Yeah, we got an answer for that. Faust later said NMM’s actions wouldn’t have doomed the planet. And we saw in the flashback that NMM’s blast to Celestia 1. Did not kill her but temporarily knocked her out, and 2. Wasn’t followed up. It wasn’t until Celestia flew back up and resumed the fight did she attack her again.
Since we saw in the alternate timeline that Celestia was not dead, but imprisoned in the moon, we can assume that her original attack wouldn’t have killed her, either.
Yeah, you’re bringing up unrelated stuff trying to prove a point. LoZ is not MLP. That’s so irrelevant I don’t understand why you think that proves anything. One series legends and lore do not equal every series’.
Wait, we’re told how it went down, then later saw a flashback and it went down almost exactly that same way. And now you’re saying it wasn’t a recounting? Dude, are we even watching the same show?
Sure, the historians and higher-educated ponies. But 1000 years is a long time and it’s not surprising that not everyone was well-versed.
Welcome to the limitations of a cartoon meant for young kids. Occam’s Razors and all.
You’re trying to prove the comic is canon by citing the comic as evidence.
Uh, the show? The show’s creator? Lauren Faust never said there was a separate creature involved in Luna’s downfall.
At this point, I’m getting tired of going in circles with you and given your last paragraph, in which you seem to dislike the actual show over the secondary media, I’m going to conclude nothing will change your mind. You aren’t willing to accept the fact that the show overrides everything, and nothing in the show conclusively proves your theory but you’re going to grasp at straws and try to make connections that aren’t there.
Plus, it certainly didn’t seem like NMM only wanted to lock Celestia up during the Princess Twilight Sparkle flashback.
Comics are B-canon. Canon until the show does something differently. That “black mist” was a manifestation from Luna’s hatred/generic magic transformation effect. Not a sentient creature.
Insane people do insane things, who would’ve thought? The Cutie Re-Mark also showed that not only did she not kill Celestia (she imprisoned her in the moon as revenge) but that the world continued on despite its lack of sunlight. Show canon > comic canon.
Except everything else in that legend was accurate. Literally down to the day. It would be awfully odd (and convenient for your point) if just that one point was inaccurate, wouldn’t it?
You’re using comic canon. You can’t argue for something by using an example which requires said point to be unquestionably true to begin with. That’s basically saying “The proof of this is that this is true.”
You left out the part where Luna created the Tantabus to torture herself. She also blames herself and speaks of what she did in first-person. Pretty strong indicators that it was her and not some third-party creature that did what she did. Your proof is “the black ball that surrounded her looks somewhat like the black mist in the comic.”
The Nightmare Rarity arc was simply someone going “Hey, wouldn’t it be cool if one of the mane 6 was corrupted like Nightmare Moon?” and then they came up with a way to make it semi-believable.
Edited
Not to mention, that doesn’t explain what that black mist that surrounded Luna was. Seeing as she didn’t start transforming until it surrounded her. And all signs definitely point to that black mist being the same black mist seen in this comic page.
your current filter.Plus, if NMM was “all Luna”, then it would mean that she willingly tried to kill her own sister, and attempted to enact something that would essentially destroy the world. After reading Journal of the Two Sisters, that very interpretation of Luna doesn’t sit well with me.
@dynamicv
Plus, there’s the fact that, in the Princess Twilight Sparkle flashback, Luna doesn’t start transforming until after the aforementioned black mist surrounds her.
Edited
I have two of them. Soon to be three, heh heh.
It’s not in the show, it was externally. I just can’t remember exactly where I read it. I want to say it was either from Faust, or one of the writers at the time. In any case since the episode aired that showed it, it’s completely non-canon anyway.
I could understand them not using it if it’s something she said offhand, since as dynamicv says the opening narration makes it seem like it all happens on that one ‘fateful day’.
Which does mean that the show could out-and-out have Luna say “I was totally in control of all of my actions as NMM” and any argument to the contrary goes down the drain, but eh, at least that’ll shut down the possibility for that particular brand of comment drama! xP
The Guardians of Harmony Nightmare Moon figurine is awesome.
I don’t recall “3 days” ever being mentioned in the show. It’s not in the opening narration of the first episode in any case.
I’m very excited whenever new Luna or Nightmare Moon merchandise comes out. I was bitterly, bitterly disappointed that Funko made the show-accurate vinyl figure of her and Celestia Hot Topic-exclusive, and they became near-impossible to find because people were buying them out to resell them. And after being in a near-constant state of being sold out, discontinued both of them. Now Luna goes for triple-digit prices online, and Celestia isn’t too far behind (I managed to get her.)
@DoesNotExist
Yeah, I forget exactly where, but it was stated that after Nightmare Moon raised the moon, Celestia tried her best to convince her to stop. She pleaded with her for three days, but she refused. Celestia was reluctant to banish her, but after seeing she wouldn’t lower the moon, she decided she had no choice.
Of course then the show later obliterated that by compressing it down into one argument and a fight.
Hold on, where does the description of pleading for three days come from? Is that something else from Faust?
Nightmare Moon was the first and so far only animated toy I’ve gotten from the show, and Luna is the only larger plush I’ve ever made room for in my life. She helps keep me sane at work.
I’m really happy Lauren fought for her.
I am extremely glad Luna and Nightmare Moon continue to be brought up in the show, even if it’s rarely and in the case of the latter, only done via flashbacks or alternate timelines. I do wish the show hadn’t retconned the original description of events, where Celestia pleasded with Luna for three days before banishing her. They shortened that down in-show to less than what, five minutes? I get it was to expedite the episode but I still feel it’s a shame we won’t get to see any flashbacks to what she could’ve been doing in that time. The arguments between her and Celestia, the additional fleshing-out of the series’ originating story.
And to think, Hasbro actually wanted Luna written out of the show post-redemption early on because they thought she would “scare” children. Faust pushed against it.
Heh heh.
Edited
Normally, when there’s a head canon debate I’m only there because it got reported, so I really only consider those from a “Are rules being broken, and if so how should I frame a response?” perspective. So, this is really the first time I’ve taken the risk of talking about what I think about Nightmare Moon on the site, and I’m glad to be having this conversation with you.
And, I agree with your thoughts about how Luna’s own internal issues “arose as” Nightmare Moon. Luna’s own unresolved inner drama was the origin; the source; the sole and singular inspiration of what became the being Nightmare Moon.
For me, it was very much an evocation on Luna’s part, rather than an invocation.
I think that fits very, very well with the show’s whole approach to magic. And, now that Nightmare Moon has been manifested once, that energy is more accessible, in the same way that whatever “magic” makes it possible for a pony to write a scroll, and for other ponies to read that scroll and access the same magic - yet if the physical object of the scroll is destroyed somehow the magic is also destroyed.
Personally, I find the “And the stars will aid in her escape” idea very, very delicious. It’s one of those things that an author writes, only pointing toward what hopefully will become a greater truth.
Whatever the outcome in the show, I think it’s one of the more clever things that Lauren did.
the whole Nightmare Moon myth remains some pretty high energy fantasy, and I’m glad that the series is continuing to leverage it, through things like the Tantabus and Luna’s persistent inability to forgive herself, and the snapshot of the alternative timeline where Nightmare Moon ended up being a fairly effective leader - and one of the few beings in the entire series to be shown simply blasting things to pieces if they’re in her way.
… I may have strayed from the conversation … sorry.
PS: I find it deeply ironic that I’m having my first actual conversation about this on the site on an image that frankly was nearly deleted for “Ugh. Why are you doing this.”
Edited
No, my opening line was meant in the tone of now I’m getting into the metaphysical stuff. Meaning I’m discussing it.
My previous comments about the explanation of the stars is not to imply I’m a literalist. It’s just comments I had on this subject in conjunction with what I just said about headcanon debates.
But my personal belief jives with what we’ve been presented by the show creator and the writers since. Luna was physically transformed into NMM. She was not “corrupted” by an outside force, but from her own jealousy, hatred and anger.
My comment in regards to the linked image is that it’s possible to very easily interpret the “Luna was buried within” statement to mean mentally, and that she had developed a split-personality there. It’s very logical and still maintains the one being, not a separate one.
We’ve also got real-life examples of this. Someone develops a split-personality and that personality is in “control” while their real one is subdued within.
I’d say the most-logical explanation for NMM being “in control” was this. Luna’s jealousy corrupted her, she mentally snapped, and there you go, the NMM personality is born and takes over.
Other people are free to interpret it how they want. This is just what I consider a very likely explanation in relation to Faust’s statement.
Is there a problem with talking about the metaphysical aspects of this?
In a cartoon where ponies can do just about anything they can imagine, I can not think of any reason why it’s necessary - or even useful - to track where Luna’s physical body resided - or whether it physically existed during the time that she was “trapped by and or within” the entity we refer to as “Nightmare Moon”.
After all, the Tantabus was not a physical creature, but could have been.
Edited
Now we are talking metaphysical stuff. It could very well mean that she was not there mentally, that NMM was like a split-personality she developed after the hatred had taken hold. The real personality buried under the one created by hatred.
I don’t think in any case it was an actual, separate being. It was all mental, in any respect.
@Ciaran
Well, not all of it was here. But yes, if someone is going absolutely nuts, I do consider reporting them. But on the flip side I’ve also seen some people return to normal after a short outburst, so sometimes I give them the benefit of the doubt.
Edited
If you see things like that getting out of control, please do report them (and I know you have, but it sounds like maybe you could be doing it more).
Edited
I’m not arguing with you at all. My point was I’ve grown so weary with arguments over headcanon with random people (not you) about so many things, I’m excusing myself from anything beyond the literal word of the creator here, since the canon story stops short and anything else are headcanons.
The irony to that statement is that Nightmare Moon is my favorite villain of the series, and I love the mythology, as limited as it is in-show, that surrounds her. I’m just getting gun-shy as it were when the subject comes up because I’ve seen (again, from other people) some insane headcanoning for things, including this. Where people will break out in all-out verbal warfare with you over their personal headcanon. If they think the stars are magical beings from another dimension who are made of fruit, and they believe Nightmare Moon is the reincarnation of their whipped cream god and want her to reign blueberry topping retribution across the lands, you better agree with them or they’ll act like you personally slapped them across the face, and kicked their dog.
So I’m not against finding meaning in something like this, or against people coming up with their own headcanons. I just sometimes want to head off a potential headcanon meltdown like I described, in case one is possible.
I’ve seen some of the stupidest arguments start because one person was adamant about a completely insane personal theory and regardless of the evidence presented against them to counter it in-show, they still argue against it. Sometimes even arguing against the show staff.
I’m not calling anyone here crazy, it’s a just in case thing. Again, coming from experience. A normal conversation suddenly exploding when another person enters it.
I love that sentiment.
It’s like what Tolkein said about his own books; “with regard to fairy stories, I feel that it is more interesting, and also in its way more difficult, to consider what they are, what they have become for us, and what values the long alchemic processes of time have produced in them. In Dasent’s words I would say: ‘We must be satisfied with the soup that is set before us, and not desire to see the bones of the ox out of which it has been boiled.’”
Lauren put together something amazing, and I love the complexity of the world that she has created with such simple strokes.
Edited
If we want to talk about what Faust said, remember that she also said once that “Luna was no longer present, jealousy buried her inside NMM”. I don’t know about you, but to me that implies at least the possibility that Luna was no longer in control of her actions after creating this persona.
Edited because: Embedded the image - Ciaran.
Was Luna’s prison the moon? Or was her prison the shell of hatred and darkness which was Nightmare Moon?
I think you are trying to have an argument with me about literal things. Yes, the literal things are literal things, but - Luna was not “on the moon”. Luna is pixels. The moon is pixels. The whole thing is pixels rendered from vectors and bezier curves. Literally.
It appears that you do not like it when people take inspiration from the phrase “the stars will set her free”, when folks apply any kind of “after the fact”, “brilliant in hindsight” revaluation of the genius of what Lauren created - the sheer genius of how well she crafted those words so that they would be able to be “mystically reapplied however the viewer wanted”.
But I like the idea that the sum of the parts is greater than the parts themselves.
I think its very, very cool that we can look at that single sentence from the first episode, and see myriad meanings in it.
But, I’m not a literalist. For example, I don’t believe that the bible means one and only one thing. And I’m not too worried about trying to figure out what James Madison was or wasn’t thinking when he penned the draft of the constitution.
Because I prefer to ask; “What inspiration can we find in these things?”
Because isn’t inspiration what people should be taking from mystical things?
Edited
I hadn’t kept up with the latest comics, good to know that.
I think the whole thing originally was just an excuse to explain how Rarity could become corrupted.
Another Nightmare Moon comic (by the same writer as Nightmare Rarity no less) confirmed the Nightmare Force was created by Luna herself AFTER she became Nightmare Moon, which means every vague statement about it in the Nightmare Rarity arc must be interpreted with that in mind. The Tantabus confirms she can create such entities.
And the recent Ponies of Dark Water arc had Luna straight up confirm in dialog that there was no possession or outside influence involved in her becoming Nightmare Moon, just herself to blame.
She was physically imprisoned in the moon. You don’t have to get metaphorical here. And when asked where Celestia was after she had escaped, Faust said she had been imprisoned in the sun, as revenge. This is shown at the end where after Nightmare Moon’s defeat, Celestia literally seems as if she’s appearing from the sun.
Now, as for the wording itself, Faust said nothing about the “stars” had been written. It was meant to sound all mystical and stuff, but was just a plot device. A way to explain Nightmare Moon being able to escape without spending tons of time in the show explaining how she did.
Now granted, I’ll have long discussions (and sometimes arguments) over some of the smallest bits of lore in the show, but in this case with the origins of the “prophesy” so clearly outlined, and there being absolutely nothing more to the story, it’s all entering headcanon territory beyond that. And while I’m not against some interpretations to fill in the blanks on this subject, I’ve had way too many arguments with people who get enraged if you disagree with their headcanon on anything, to want to get involved too much on this subject.
Edited
I don’t believe it’s possible to be too metaphorical, especially when you’re talking about quotes from ancient, 1,000 year old texts are concerned. Especially ones that “come to pass” but “not the way we thought”.
Was the prophesy right? Or was the prophesy misunderstood?
Everything looks clear, when it is looked at by one who knows the path.
And that’s the problem with paths.
@Ciaran
The actual quote is:
“The Mare in the Moon, myth from olden pony times. A powerful pony who wanted to rule Equestria, defeated by the Elements of Harmony and imprisoned in the moon. Legend has it that on the longest day of the thousandth year, the stars will aid in her escape, and she will bring about nighttime eternal!”
Yeah, that refers to her imprisonment in the moon, unless you want to start getting really metaphorical. Also, the prophesy obviously didn’t fully come to pass (at least in the prime timeline) since Equestria still gets day and night.