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Didn’t read anything you said but it was long and rage-filled enough to indicate that you might be a little too wrapped up in this.
I am calm :) That’s fine, this will be my final reply here as well, although if you wish to message me in a week or so, I might be willing to attempt to explain my views even more detail then I already have, and answer all your questions. (Although I should point out that if you were less obsessed then I, YOU WOULD of accepted MY agree to disagree handshake in the first place. Your ‘clearly’ is very subjective and quite one-sided)
As for the rest, I don’t know what to tell you. I am somewhat symphathetic towards your plight of not understanding me, but there isn’t much I can do either. The very fact I have written so much on explaining my side of the views yet you say you have no better understanding of it then the beginning is…well…sad. :( I can honestly tell you are a good person deep down and you want to understand me, but a single-perspective mindset happens to even smart, nice people, and its the only explanation of not learning a bit about my perspective.
I cannot fathom your methodology though. You’d rather argue continously then talk to someone who agrees with you? That’s meaningless. The purpose of a good debate is to clash our opinions and 1)try to convince the other person of your views…but additionally 2) look for good arguments in the other persons views as well as 3) find enough common ground in our views so we identify more with each other. You just said you prefer to argue then agree at all. I cannot understand that.
A good debate isn’t about victory or defeat, its about learning and getting smarter from each other’s views. I tried to learn from you but it is difficult, most of what you did is discredit the other character’s strengths and put Twilight Sparkle on a pedastal for everything. Just as a minor example, you knew that while Peachbottom changed Harshwihinny’s perspective on the city, she was still furious, and it was RD’s speech that destroyed that anger and convinced her….but you purposely overlooked that so you could argue more.
Its pitiable that you can’t learn other’s perspectives, at least on some subjects. Think more humble, know your limits of knowledge; maybe you should change your username as a start. It gives a bad but accurate impression on anybody from the start.
Calm down. You call me obsessed, but you’re clearly more emotionally invested in this argument than I am.
This has been tedious, and I feel I’m walking away with no better understanding of your side of the argument then I had before, but I’d rather argue than than talk with someone who agrees me. Since you’d rather not this will be my final reply.
Again, you ignored even many more of my points instead of confronting them, a significant amount of which undermines your arguments.
And again, I no longer WANT YOU to address them considering
I gave you the chance to end this debate peacefully and politely, and you threw that offer to the side like a petty child. My only mention of hate is in general responses, mostly toward the other guys. For you its closer to obsession then hate.
A hero and main character is proactive, strong-willed, self-dependent, and often suffers the most to aid their friends. How was Twilight ever a hero in any of the finale’s? The first one was solved by Celestia’s letters being sent to someone who had already given up on her own(didn’t see her getting a vision of her entire hometown being destroyed to break her), the second one was solved by Cadenese, just barely making a connection with Twi cause Twi was convinced her old foalsitter was pure evil. I love Twilight’s better personality aspects, but only Twilight fanboys claim she saw through Chysalis herself and handled the situation with any sort of sense, dignity or courtasy, stuffing AJ’s hat into her face. The third role with the crystal heart was completely forced upon her like a homework assignment that nearly got everyone killed, and the 4th was additionally forced upon her by Celestia’s book, then solved by SPIKE being proactive and getting Twilight to have the exact same revelation and do NO different then what she did with Discord’s event, except with no memory spell.
If you want a measure of who the main character(s), hero(s) and/or leader(s) is, base it on their daily actions and how they dealt with enemies outside of circumstance, like their fight with the changelings. i.e. ALL OF THEM. Screentime means little when Twilight is the audience’s eyes/observational main character since episode 1.
So here we are…you have now answered with incredibly biased and hole-filled responses to only 1/4 of my total points. Many of those points already counter yours. If I destroy those few arguments you have, you’ll just come back with weaker and pettier arguments and we’ll be doing this until doomsday. I TOLD you your reputation precedes you, which is why I figured you’d be petty enough to try to continue this pointless debate EVEN WHEN I WARNED YOU to be the bigger man. You failed.
So I ask you again….are you really so petty to continue down this arguement AFTER I already offered the ‘agree to disagree’ handshake. I have better things to do with my time and I’m sure it would take you ages to answer all my points. (sigh) For some reason, I am forgiving enough that I am offering it one more time. Are you willing to shake hands to agree to disagree? To be a bigger man then your reputation predicts?
There’s no hate on my end. I didn’t respond to you because I was offended, I responded because I wanted to share why I disagree and hear you elaborate on why you disagree with me.
Celestia didn’t give her the crown, and Celestia isn’t the one who called it the “most powerful and elusive element.” During the normal episodes Twilight isn’t in the spotlight much more than the rest of the Main Six, but she is in the role of leader more often than she isn’t, and she is the focus of every two part episode.
I’m really scratching my head wondering how you came to the conclusion that Rainbow Dash is the hero. Nightmare Moon wasn’t defeated when Rainbow Dash excepted the others as her friends, it wasn’t her who cured her friends of Discords corruption and lead them against him, She didn’t see trough Chrysalis’ front and rescue Cadance, and she didn’t organize the Crystal Fair and brave Sombra’s traps to find the Crystal Heart.
It’s like arguing that Han Solo is the main character of Star Wars. It’s fine if that’s your favorite character, but that doesn’t change the fact that it’s Luke’s story.
As for the the points you wanted me to address.
“Yeah. Retarded visuals are the sign of a badly written and rushed episode. That’s the POINT. Good episodes don’t need to exaggerate actual events; events happen as they are. This is the most BASIC of writing, even in a cartoon.”
I don’t think using exaggerated visuals to tell a story equals poor writing.
“Look how badly she handled Sombra, you think Twilight knows even half of what the others know instinctively about the magic of friendship?”
You mean how she organized the Crystal Fair and found the Crystal Heart?
“Heck, the episode right before this showed how badly she was ready for huge responsibility, while RD stepped up to the plate.”
She stepped up to the plate by following Twilight’s lead and being the first to mistake the wrong pony for the inspector?
“The ability to convey one’s feelings to move the most stubborn of people is the mark of leadership, and its so contrasting when its RD doing this to the Games Commisioner and the Buffalo Chief instead of Twi isnt’t it?”
In the first case, it was Peachbottom who convinced Harshwhinny, not Rainbow Dash. In the second, the buffalo went through with the attack.
Well that’s kind of how it works in the real world. If you haven’t addressed all the points in my argument, my argument still stands. That’s debate 101. I have no reason to poke flaws in a counter argument that isn’t even complete yet. Once you do, then I’ll point all the flaws out lickity split…
(but only on the condition there aren’t better points then the ones you haven’t listed yet. I’m never always right afterall, no one is)
…But to be quite honest, this back and forth discussion is getting as tedious as it is petty. Its beneath us. I FOR ONE originally wanted to STOP a hate filled debate from even occuring in the first place, but overly defensive MMC fans wanted to start a petty argument, like so many times before. (when the defenders are starting more desperate fights then the haters of one or two specific episodes, you know things are messed up in my humble opinion)
Reputation? Just on Derpibooru. Your known for your absolute bias towards your preconceptions on Twilight. Your absolutely obsessed with the idea that just because Twilight writes the friendship reports, she’s the end all main character, instead of the observer role which introduced us to the world of Equestria and Ponyville out of her combination of ignorance and knowledge.
Her crown element only symbolizes her importance to Celestia, not her importance to the show.
Even in Season 1 where her role as sole friendship reporter actually was significant, in episodes with no focus character she was just a follower, not ‘the’ main character, like in Over the Barrel, The Cutie Mark Chronicles, and The Best Night Ever. These were episodes where she was in the thick of things just as much as the rest of them, but had no significant impact at all. Afterall, Twilight is indeed the spark of the Elements of Harmony’s magic, Twilight has nothing to do with the source of the new elements of harmony, that would be RD that bound them all together by fate. It seems that Celestia, RD and Twilight’s fate are intertwined in some way that is veeeeeery suspect considering RD’s cutie mark.
(As established with the CMC and even poundcake, ponies are born with their talent even before they get their cutie mark. They just have to be aware of it. Twilight’s cutie mark represents stargazing, knowledge, and magical skill. But since she was friendless and weak of heart(didn’t want any friends) back then, she needed the excess magical power given by the Sonic Rainboom to discover her talent. Even into young adulthood she still can’t control it completely, even in S1 with Rapidash Twilight or S3 when she blew her houses’ roof)
This pattern of equal but non-main character roles, or even following someone else as a main character that isn’t the focus either, continued into Return to Harmony Part 1, The Last Roundup, Dragon Quest, Ponyville Confidential, Keep Calm and Flutter On, Spike at your Service, Games Ponies Play, and even the last quarter of Canterlot Wedding when knowing Cadense didn’t matter anymore, That’s a LOT of episodes.
I didn’t even make up the thing about Hasbro descriptions: they label Twilight as the main leader of the show and Rainbow Dash the main hero of the show. Usually they are the same in most shows correct? Not if the show has a trope character called the “6th ranger”…then there is no ‘one’ main character.
But lets call it quits now. Either some of my reasoning got through to you, or some of your points hit a mark with me, it doesn’t really warrant continuing this pointless debate. Lets just shake hands and agree to disagree. :)
You expect me to address every word of your argument, but you can ignore mine entirely? Never mind that though. what’s this reputation your talking about? I didn’t realize I had one.
BP:“Ladies and gentlemen, I give you the face of the anti-Twilicorn movement.”
CronoM:“Always reversing it to make the other person as petty as yourself. Tsk tsk. Sometimes Twilight’s a better leader, sometimes RD is a better leader. As long as the show doesn’t treat any like stepping stools for the others, its good writing.”
Sounds legit to me.
Ladies and gentlemen, I give you the face of the anti-Twilicorn movement.
That’s a laugh coming from the ‘Princess Twilight is perfect club.’ Always reversing it to make the other person as petty as yourself. Tsk tsk. Sometimes Twilight’s a better leader, sometimes RD is a better leader. As long as the show doesn’t treat any like stepping stools for the others, its good writing. The other 5 had as much importance in the end as the people a beauty pagent winner talks about as she’s named Miss America….quite appropriately, considering she was part of Princess Twilight’s marketing gag.
And Zecora only said that after they abandoned the original plan of perfecting her unicorn magic (to illusions), which she lacked the mental maturity to do. That’s fine for her character, but again, its like your ignoring every other character but Twilight and calling anybody who disagrees ‘biased’. Talk about ‘pot calling the kettle black’ bullshit.
Some people actually use their brains. :/
@supermanhulkjesus
Especially hilarious when you didn’t even have a good responce for even a third of what I said, and weak excuses for the little you did. As I should expect from superhulkmanjesus….all closemindedness, no mental flexibility whatsoever. Your reputation proceeds you.
Don’t bother; he’s just a Rainbow Dash fanboy upset that Best Pony wasn’t chosen to be the central character. If he can say Twilight failed Zecora’s training when Zecora herself said “You learned all of my lessons; all but one” (with that one being using her friends to trick Trixie), there’s no hope in getting him to listen to reason.
“Jeez, you MMC defenders are DESPERATE.”
It was a direct quote from the episode.
“Everybody knows that MLP doesn’t have a SINLGE main character.”
MLP doesn’t have one main character, but not all of the main characters are represented equally. I honestly can’t see how you can watch any of the two part episodes and come to the conclusion that Twilight isn’t the main character. Even in the normal episodes she’s the leader of the group.
“Celestia sending her a spell to wewrite her own destiny as more important, more powerful and more privalidged then the others is no different then how Trixie tried to forcefully change her own destiny.”
“Magical Mystery Cure” wasn’t about rewriting her destiny, it was about fulfilling her destiny, and Trixie’s motivations had nothing to do with destiny at all.
“Zecora even said Twilight could of won over Trixie’s reckless Alicorn power by mastering her own unicorn magic, but Trixie’s insults got to Twilight’s ego and she failed Zecora’s training.”
Zecora didn’t know about the Alicorn Amulet, and Twilight wasn’t distracted because her ego was hurt. She was distracted because she knew There was something different about Trixie.
“Several episodes later she got instant Alicorn powers for Celestia sending her a screwed up spell, harming her friends, and being rewarded just by fixing it.”
Celestia didn’t make Twilight an alicorn for fixing her friends cutie marks. In fact she didn’t make Twilight an alicorn at all. The spell Twilight wrote after she fixed their cutie marks is what made her an alicorn.
“Faust and Hasbro always intended for RD to be the main hero, while Twilight the supportful and organized leader. Heck its in all their Hasbro descriptions.”
Now you’re just making shit up, but since you brought up Faust, it’s worth mentioning that she intended for Twilight to succeed Celestia.
OK, now you’re flat-out lying and distorting what others say; I’m done.
“She even helped reunite me with my sister, along with these 5 other wonderful ponies: Rainbow Dash, Pinkie Pie, Rarity, Applejack and Fluttershy.”
Yeah that happened. NOT!
Jeez, you MMC defenders are DESPERATE.
@supermanhulkjesus
“They used visuals to show that things weren’t going well for them.”
Yeah. Retarded visuals are the sign of a badly written and rushed episode. That’s the POINT. Good episodes don’t need to exaggerate actual events; events happen as they are. This is the most BASIC of writing, even in a cartoon.
“They weren’t as important. Twilight has always been the main character, and the others were always in supporting roles during the two parters.”
Hardly. Twilight’s the observational main character, like John T. Meyers from Hellboy or Sakura from Naruto(except Twilight is 1000 times more lovable then Sakura in her nerdy mage parts, not her Barbie Princess moments). Not only is her life an open book, she is too normal and too ignorant to be a main character by herself. Unlike in the IDW comics, her ability with magic and training with Celestia is mostly used as just a simple fact about what she can do, not a place for character development. (“Celestia wants me to read all these books.”)
Everybody knows that MLP doesn’t have a SINLGE main character, especially after Lesson Zero clarified Twilight’s personal friendship lessons were no longer needed. Not only are EACH AND EVERY ONE OF THEM help form a single whole, RD often played the role of the damage control commanding officer/6th ranger status through most of the 2-parters, having to suffer the worse like seeing Cloudsdale destroyed while Twilight got doubted into submission
“In “Magic Dual,” Twilight had to rely on her friends because she couldn’t beat Trixie alone. In “ Magical Mystery Cure,” the effects of the incomplete spell were corrected by the power of their friendships, and it’s Twilight’s understanding of friendship which allowed her to rewrite the spell which turned her into an alicorn. Maybe you interpreted these episodes differently than I did.”
Celestia sending her a spell to wewrite her own destiny as more important, more powerful and more privalidged then the others is no different then how Trixie tried to forcefully change her own destiny. Zecora even said Twilight could of won over Trixie’s reckless Alicorn power by mastering her own unicorn magic, but Trixie’s insults got to Twilight’s ego and she failed Zecora’s training. Several episodes later she got instant Alicorn powers for Celestia sending her a screwed up spell, harming her friends, and being rewarded just by fixing it.
Look how badly she handled Sombra, you think Twilight knows even half of what the others know instinctively about the magic of friendship? Heck, the episode right before this showed how badly she was ready for huge responsibility, while RD stepped up to the plate. The ability to convey one’s feelings to move the most stubborn of people is the mark of leadership, and its so contrasting when its RD doing this to the Games Commisioner and the Buffalo Chief instead of Twi isnt’t it? :/ Twilight even admitted the thing she was best at was lecturing, not leading. And while so many say that Twilight is the ONLY main character, Faust and Hasbro always intended for RD to be the main hero, while Twilight the supportful and organized leader. Heck its in all their Hasbro descriptions.
Princess Celestia: “She even helped reunite me with my sister, Princess Luna.” (emphasis mine)
Rewatch the episode if you don’t believe me.
“Yeah, that farm was in tip-top shape. You really don’t have a good memory do you?”
They used visuals to show that things weren’t going well for them.
“Achieved what? Answer me that. All she did was say SHE couldn’t of gotten this far without them and friends were important, not that they were just as important.”
They weren’t as important. Twilight has always been the main character, and the others were always in supporting roles during the two parters.
“If you can’t see any hypocrisy in it with Magic Dual, even if it was forced and accidental on Twilight’s part, don’t bother responding. Its too obvious.”
In “Magic Dual,” Twilight had to rely on her friends because she couldn’t beat Trixie alone. In “ Magical Mystery Cure,” the effects of the incomplete spell were corrected by the power of their friendships, and it’s Twilight’s understanding of friendship which allowed her to rewrite the spell which turned her into an alicorn. Maybe you interpreted these episodes differently than I did.
I’ll only respond to the responces that weren’t worthless semantics. The opinion of the defenders of MMC ARE equally valid, but the stronger consensus of agreed flaws in it then other episodes shows where the truth leans towards more. Again, the same logic that makes Rotten Tomatoes is a good measure of a quality of a movie.
“Nothing was destroyed or rebuilt they were simply living lives that they were ill suited for.”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPM8cM7aLYs&list=PLWLTRrCXXa5j_Ck2YGtL50PV4YTQCuMMx
Yeah, that farm was in tip-top shape. You really don’t have a good memory do you?
“Twilight was Celestia’s protege since she was a child, and she’s saved the world on multiple occasions. It’s kind of ridiculous that she didn’t already have celebrity status.”
“It’s not as if she beckoned them to stand beside her as she announced that she wouldn’t have achieved what she did without them, or like that was the entire moral of the episode.”
Achieved what? Answer me that. All she did was say SHE couldn’t of gotten this far without them and friends were important, not that they were just as important. Its not the same as “All for One, and One for All” And that was pretty lost on Celestia, who tried to give ALL the credit of saving Luna from Nightmare Moon to Twilight alone. Rewatch the episode if you don’t believe me :)
The whole point of the episode was that Twilight’s friends had to suffer through a mind-fuck spell Celestia sent so that Twilight could be a princess and be famous for THEIR deeds while the other didn’t. Its the same reason Celestia sent Twilight with the instructions ‘you must do it alone’ when Sombra emerged. Twilight’s lesson was more important then the risk to the Crystal Ponies’ lives.
“What hypocrisy is that?”
If you can’t see any hypocrisy in it with Magic Dual, even if it was forced and accidental on Twilight’s part, don’t bother responding. Its too obvious.
Trixie is a unicorn. Twilight is a unicorn. Is that a massive enough of a hint?
And while I would have liked if Equestria Girls was more like Mean Girls, rather than a bunch of cliches strung together with a shallow plot, its a good thing we can see Hasbro wern’t trying to make that film appeal to bronies.
Does that mean we can stop the pointless complaints and shit storms?
A consensus means a general agreement. How can there be a general agreement that the episode was bad if the majority of people do not agree that it was? You go on to say that it’s because the people who don’t agree with you just have bad taste, and there opinions aren’t as valid as yours.
“The overall majority know that its flawed at least on some level”
There isn’t any episode that I don’t think is flawed.
“The writer of MMC HIMSELF admitted the episode didn’t hold any water as a stand alone episode.”
He admitted that he would have liked for to be a two parter. That’s not the same thing.
“Applejack’s ENTIRE farm being destroyed and rebuilt in a day by a former rock farmer?”
Nothing was destroyed or rebuilt they were simply living lives that they were ill suited for.
“The entire city of Canterlot celebrating Twilight’s inauguration when Twilight mostly kept to herself in Canterlot?”
Aside from the fact that becoming a princess in a world were that makes you one of the most powerful people in world would be big deal, Twilight was Celestia’s protege since she was a child, and she’s saved the world on multiple occasions. It’s kind of ridiculous that she didn’t already have celebrity status.
“Not even a name drop for the other 5?”
It’s not as if she beckoned them to stand beside her as she announced that she wouldn’t have achieved what she did without them, or like that was the entire moral of the episode.
“Accidental hypocrisy for Twilight accepting Alicorness after Magic Duel?’ Those are just the tips of the iceberg.”
What hypocrisy is that?
“Large” does not mean majority either!!
The majority of people who watched Michael Bay’s Transformers and the Twilight Saga actually thought they were well written! That’s how it got SO MUCH MONEY! Not all people anaylize whether they watch is good or bad, a lot just like base level viewing. However a LARGE amount of people, with organized and justified opinions, pointed out how much crap it was, until a large amount of the internet knew how infamously bad it was.
This is what I’m saying: