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Background Pony #36A5

King Throax is the best!!!

Posted 8 months ago Report

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Changeling17N

DaUnidentifiedChangeling

Cute

Posted 2 years ago Report

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IoM citizen #42

@NavelColt
Chrysalis hoarding the food sounds similar to how Kell in Destiny will hog ether from the rest of the Eliksni, thus stifling their growth. Allegedly all Fallen were as big as Kells before their home world fell, as ether was abundant there.

Posted 2 years ago Report

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Background Pony #9394

Honestly i wish some changelings stayed unreformatted so we could have a bit of a fight scene between thorax and chrysalis groups

Posted 2 years ago Report

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OtherFritz

In Treue fest

@AC97

You say that, but in regards to the Windigos, it’s strange that Chrysalis would be putting emphasis on “ponies will be so grateful they’ll do whatever I want,” as opposed to “we,” if she’s talking on behalf of them as well

At that point, it’s safe to say she wasn’t. Their alliance (which had held strong for most of the season) was falling apart at that time (which contributed nothing to the plot), though they were still pursuing their common goal of carving up Equestria.

and it still doesn’t explain why she 100% says she’d build a new hive with ponies in S8, and not mention her old hive at all, outside of citing her being angry she lost it, had them turn against her, for why she hates Starlight, when it’s laying out what her plans are, when it was a prime opportunity to do so, if it held any real weight in her mind.

I suppose the same logic could apply, that she was only going over her immediate plans and reconquering her Hive was either an unmentioned long term plan or an idea she didn’t think was feasible at the time. The issue, I suppose, is that the only “real” reasons are Doylistic in nature and there’s only so much one can speculate about why a character didn’t say something.

Also, this may not be entirely relevant, but I think it’s interesting she used the term Hive to describe her hypothetical pony fiefdom, as opposed to something like Kingdom or Domain. That she thinks of it in those terms suggests, at least to me, that she has more reason for her actions than just a desire to rule, though she may not even realise it herself.

She’s also petty and vengeful enough that it’s really hard for me to see her particularly wanting subjects who’d directly “betrayed” her back, no hard feelings except for Thorax, and even if she did, the ice they’d be on would be so thin they’d be liable to violently piss her off the second they expressed discontent.

I’m just not inclined to think she’d let mass treachery go that (relatively) easily, considering her massive ego. She’s just not that forgiving.

Fair enough, but I think it’s worth remembering that Thorax’s rule wasn’t universally embraced at first. There was a not insignificant number of changelings who refused to acknowledge his authority and preferred the old ways. If she did intend to retake her Hive, it would probably be these changelings she had in mind.

Posted 3 years ago Report

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AC97

@OtherFritz

Not necessarily. It should be remembered that it wasn’t just her plan in S9, but Cozy’s and Tirek’s as well. Their target at the time was Equestria, their common enemy. It wouldn’t have made sense to bring up the Hive since it isn’t in Equestria and the other two would’ve had no interest in it (and in a more Doylistic sense, because it wasn’t the focus of the episode).

You say that, but in regards to the Windigos, it’s strange that Chrysalis would be putting emphasis on “ponies will be so grateful they’ll do whatever I want,” as opposed to “we,” if she’s talking on behalf of them as well, and it still doesn’t explain why she word-for-word says she’d build a “new hive” of ponies in S8, and not mention her old hive at all, outside of citing her being angry she lost it, had them turn against her, for why she hates Starlight, when it’s laying out what her plans are, when it was a prime opportunity to do so, if it held any real weight in her mind.

Bear in mind that her old hive wouldn’t really be receptive to helping her much on the love front anymore, when she’s completely lost one of their primary motivators for being her conquest tool, so it’s a lot easier to write them off, as a result, from a pragmatic perspective.

She’s also petty and vengeful enough that it’s really hard for me to see her particularly wanting subjects who’d directly betrayed her back, no hard feelings except for Thorax, and even if she did, the ice they’d be on would be so thin they’d be liable to violently piss her off the second they expressed discontent.

I’m just not inclined to think she’d let mass treachery go that (relatively) easily, considering her massive ego. She’s just not that forgiving. I think it’s telling that she never mentioned the name “Thorax” after S6, as if she’d lumped them all in with him.

Posted 3 years ago Report
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OtherFritz

In Treue fest

Honestly, Chryssie isn’t being especially unreasonable here. There’s no point in going to her asking for love if she doesn’t have any and it’s not as if she can just produce more from thin air, unlike some people.

Also, it’s always nice to see Pharynx showing why he’s still the best thing to come out of the changedlings.

@Wayneponeth
I agree that those are probably unhelpful terms for this kind of conversation. Whatever her motive, Chrysalis is clearly a villain. It’s not as if acknowledging that does her any sort of disservice. That’s just her role and she plays it well.

@AC97

It says something about her as a character that she’d dump Twilight and Cadance into a cave with no sustenance

To be fair, the lack of nourishment was never explicitly mentioned and I believe it was implied that Cadance had been in the caves for quite a while. I think that detail is probably something the audience wasn’t meant to think about.

@AC97

Take note of her saying “claim this land” in the context of Equestria, and then look forward to her stated plan with the Windigos.

It seems rather clear that for her, in her eyes, being “restored to my rightful place” is something that can be satisfied with getting a kingdom of ponies, so long as she can reign as “Queen;” even her saying “Queen of the Changelings” in the S9 premiere doesn’t necessarily lean on the context of “get former hive back,” as opposed to “I’m the greatest apex changeling,” when you take her lack of emphasis on reclaiming her hive in all other dialogue into account.

Not necessarily. It should be remembered that it wasn’t just her plan in S9, but Cozy’s and Tirek’s as well. Their target at the time was Equestria, their common enemy. It wouldn’t have made sense to bring up the Hive since it isn’t in Equestria and the other two would’ve had no interest in it (and in a more Doylistic sense, because it wasn’t the focus of the episode).

Posted 3 years ago Report

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AC97

@Pause
Plus, it’s probably easy to be rather dismissive of getting her as a bonus item when she happened to be outside of Ponyville when they struck, from Chrysalis’ perspective. She went off to who knew where (Our Town is quite remote, is indicated to be a notable distance from Ponyville)

She is the same character who didn’t do as much diligence in impersonating Cadance as she should have, the narrative’s bias in being filtered through Twilight’s perspective aside, after all. She might’ve hoped it would’ve fallen into place to get more love that way, long-term, or some such, gain utility from manipulating her.

Starlight also, to be frank, didn’t have that many friends. The Mane Six largely have more friends and/or family they’re regularly around than she does, same for the Princesses (and yes, a “baby” will get a lot of love directed at it), hence, it’s easy to dismiss her value, as a result.

Also, it should be noted that any intel she got on Starlight’s abilities was most likely flawed from the get-go, since you had a situation where most of her powerful antics were inside the castle. She probably couldn’t know what she’d done as a villain, since it seemingly isn’t public knowledge, so it looks like she’s “just Twilight’s new apprentice.”

Posted 3 years ago Report
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Pause

World's Smallest Violin

It actually does make sense on why she never bothered with Starlight.

Every person she kidnapped has some actual relevance to the overall nature of the country being Element Bearers, rulers, or someone she has personal vendetta against.

Who is Starlight Glimmer to her? Very little. It makes no sense to waste to resources on her at that point at least when you consider Chrysalis’s ego.

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NavelColt

Snugs are Drugs for Bugs

@AC97
I definitely feel like the, ‘I didn’t think you were worth replacing with one of my drones’ bit was some heavy plot armor on Starlight’s part, for sure. At best it’s horrifically sloppy intel on the changeling’s part (something you’d assume they’d be good at given their two successful invasions), at worst it’s convenient writing. Chrysalis even referred to Starlight as ‘the Princess of Friendship’s sole pupil’ right before the other statement. She said it mockingly but, what reason would she have to doubt the prowess of Twilight? Twilight sniffed out her BS when no one else did and was strong enough to have become a princess. Chrysalis underestimated Starlight for no good reason and it felt strange.

I mean, you expect me to believe she played it safe and cocooned a literal baby but not a full grown unicorn trained by a princess? Yeah okay.

Posted 3 years ago Report

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AC97

@NavelColt
That brings up something odd about Chrysalis’ revenge priorities. She also seems significantly more pissed off at Twilight, than Cadance and Shining Armor, for her first defeat, on account of her representing her mishandling the situation, because she wasn’t supposed to free Cadance, she wasn’t supposed to not kill her (she’d intentionally pissed her off with the taunting). This also was a characterization note kinda reflected in the comics. She was, to the end, dismissive of going after Cadance in S8-S9 (she was quite mocking over concerns of Twilight still being out there, free, mind you, while that was simultaneously true, that Cadance and Shining Armor were out there).

With Starlight, she also represents a case where she miscalculated with her. She deemed her as not worth replacing, and failed to brief her changelings on what her name even was, despite knowing who she was, per her dialogue.

Queen Chrysalis: Well, well, well. The Princess of Friendship’s sole pupil. Honestly, I didn’t think you were worth replacing with one of my drones.

@TexasUberAlles
I also suspect Chrysalis would probably rather have new subjects first, to build up a new army first, consolidate, increase her power, rather than go about attacking the hive alone, if getting revenge on them for “betraying her” was on the table later, outside of her immediate goals which had continued to be “rule over ponies.”

It’s interesting how her goal, which always stayed “take over Equestria,” while it stayed the same overall, had the context of “rule over/control ponies” change, because Chrysalis in S2-S6 would have her primary goal behind conquering them be to have them be her cattle slaves, moreso than being her subjects, but after she lost her hive, it’s indicated that she now wants them to be her servants, to not just make her stronger, but to fill the role her hive once did, by serving as her new “hive,” army.

_{With no boost of any sort, she’s a bit below Twilight in raw power, which while still very powerful, makes someone like her not particularly pleased about the prospects of going at it alone… not in any grandiose capacity, at least, which is what she strongly prefers with revenge schemes.}

Posted 3 years ago Report
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NavelColt

Snugs are Drugs for Bugs

@TexasUberAlles
I mean the entire plot of To Change a Changeling was that they weren’t prepared to defend themselves against threats. I love Thorax to bits but the hive had huge issues under just him—that’s the basis for Pharynx’s character, to provide stability. I can certainly see Chrysalis coming up with something that could pose a threat before the events of that episode. She made Mane Six duplicates with relative ease, she’s probably got other tricks.

In a post-Pharynx-ascension hive though, completely agree, no question. Once Pharynx reestablished the guard forces and everyling was in practice again, she’d probably be blasting off again Team Rocket style in no time, given no leverage in helpers or buffed powers.

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TexasUberAlles

@NavelColt
Seems kinda obvious that the reason she never tried to go back to the Thorax Hive is that they likely would have torn her to shreds on sight; there was only one Changeling who wasn’t happier under the new paradigm of… “not constantly starving to death”, and Pharynx was just extremely task-focused.

The French people took Napoleon back after his first exile, but if you’d asked French horses, they almost certainly would have voted for eating him.

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NavelColt

Snugs are Drugs for Bugs

@AC97
Great points. The fact that Chrysalis carved changelings into logs seemed to be more than enough for her sympathetic fans, but as you mentioned, from a narrative standpoint, she didn’t care about the changelings, themselves, she just wanted to be in charge of others—anyone—again, and wanted revenge on Starlight for (in her mind) taking that away from her. This was demonstrated when she denounced even trying to get her hive back in favor of creating Mane Six doppelgangers from scratch and trying to use them to get her vengeance. This later became Tirek and Cozy. There wasn’t even a shred of remorse or sadness over losing the changelings, themselves, it was just narcissistic fixation on how she no longer had others to bark orders at.

As a changeling fan, I actually kinda wanted to see Chrysalis return to the hive and try and reclaim her throne by force, because I just don’t think it’s very believable that Chrysalis would bear a grudge against Starlight but have no anger for Thorax, who was just as much a catalyst for the change in his own way. Especially considering that she had demonstrated, not ten seconds earlier how livid she was with him for being a traitor and abandoning the hive in the first place. You’d think ‘traitor + literally usurped you’ would only grow that anger but, evidently not when unicorn pep talks were involved. Ultimate distraction and rerouting of fury.

That all said, I understand that would have required way more screentime and plot away from the main characters than the show had time for, so it is what it is. More fanfiction material for writers like me.

Posted 3 years ago Report
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AC97

@NavelColt
I think Fwelin summed it up quite well on another thread:

There is a (very small) amount of wiggle room to give Chrysalis the benefit of the doubt in each individual example, but when every occasion is taken as a whole, that wiggle room completely disappears, showing conclusively what her actual motivations and goals were; personal power and conquest, not the well-being of her people.

She’s sadistic, petty, vengeful, power-hungry, and desires nothing more than personal power, even if said personal power required her to keep her people fed so they were able to help her attain (and then keep) it.

It’s one thing to say you have your subjects’ best interests at heart, it’s another for your actions to say you actually do.

Chrysalis was probably never designed as a character who was sympathetic. She was the evil, sadistic leader of what seemed to be conceptualized as an Always Chaotic Evil race, and her primary motive, which is to gain power and control, is best served by benefitting them as a consequence.

It says something that you have to make up a motive/goal of Chrysalis wanting her hive back (you can even see this misconception back in this thread from someone who isn’t even speaking positively of her sympathy to begin with), and getting a “hive” of ponies is just an intermediary step up doing so, to make her even remotely “sympathetic” with her end goals, when it’s narratively clear that it’s not something she cares about accomplishing, so much as the act of reigning as queen once more, in and of itself.

_{It’s kind of like debating whether Mother Gothel cared about Rapunzel… when it’s very clear that she doesn’t, not more than what her ends are, anyway, despite being an overall more calm and tactful narcissistic manipulator than Frollo was with Quasimodo.}

@Meanlucario
It doesn’t help ethat Chrysalis is evil because she’s power-hungry and narcissistic, and her entire reasoning for repeatedly doubling down on being monstrous vermin (I say “vermin” because she’s parasitical by choice) is to soothe her ego for failing, when she’s believing her own hype in part because she’s very implicitly ravaged many other lands in the past, rather than any sympathetic reason.

The closest we got to a backstory for her, per her debut’s dialogue, indicated that she’d wanted to terrorize a city with an invasion since she “was small,” which doesn’t lend itself well to the sympathy factor, if she was like that even from the beginning.

The most likely set of circumstances for her to change would be for her to be forced to work against a mutual threat for an extended period of time, but since nothing like that happened in the show, and she doubled down on her hatred multiple times over, as opposed to letting a moment of faltering, considering the prospects of changing her ways affect her, it’s next to impossible for her to be reformed. She’s not what I consider pure evil, but her prideful, spiteful personality ensures that there’s very little difference in a practical sense.

Posted 3 years ago Report

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deathclaw2014

I just want to grill.

Posted 3 years ago Report
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cdcdrr

@NavelColt

@Wayneponeth
So much of her fanbase constantly tries to paint her in a sympathetic light and I just don’t get it.

Could be because changelings themselves are an interesting species, and people want to explore them through fanfiction or headcanon, but have trouble actually envisioning them as a scourge that devours like a swarm of locusts. With Chrysalis as such a major part of their motivation, one would have to invent other hives and queens using less aggressiv methods, or instead make Chrysalis a more reasonable, understandable character. Because her being the apex murder-hobo is reducing her to an event that happens to Equestria, after which nothing can happen anymore. And so, she has to be softened up in order to have any pathos, drama or romance.

Though personally, I could envision an evil/morally different take being just as interesting. Such as changelings’ perspective on the world being completely alien to ponies, with a values system that is nothing like what non-insectoids can comprehend. Where Chrysalis turning ponies into unthinking hive slaves to feed upon gives them a purpose they did not have living their frivolous, individualistic lives, spent aimlessly improving their self instead of furthering the common wellbeing of their species with cold, uncaring logic. That she is saving them from their lonely, miserable fates, and placing them under the protection and guidance of her swarm.

Or, you know, you could just turn them into rainbow coloured beetles and accept Friendship as the only right social model.

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Meanlucario

Time to get spooky

@Wayneponeth
@NavelColt
I’m going to guess so they can “fix” her, because being evil is just a minor issue or some nonsense. Humans have a creepy fetish for evil it feels like.

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Meanlucario

Time to get spooky

@Background Pony #42A7
More likely that some people can’t recognize that being evil isn’t something than can be “cured” and will to great lengths to “fix” them.

Also, that doesn’t make sense since people aren’t kind to jerk characters because they’re realistic, so why would Chrysalis being “realistic” have the opposite effect? And she isn’t that complex once you remove the rosy glasses.

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Background Pony #42A7

Interestingly, chrysalis seems to be the closest of all the rulers in the play to our ancient rulers in real life, which may be the reason why this character looks so complex and comments on polarization

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NavelColt

Snugs are Drugs for Bugs

@Wayneponeth
100% agree with this. I’m always confused why people do this. Chrysalis is one of my favorite villains in the show and it’s exactly because she’s been portrayed as this unstoppable force of selfish cunning. So much of her fanbase constantly tries to paint her in a sympathetic light and I just don’t get it. There’s so very little to work with for that argument, and so much badassery to appreciate from her very consistent, thorough portrayal as a villain.

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Butters Stotch

What’s wrong with a character being a villain anyway? We can still like a villain no matter how evil they are. I think Chrysalis is a villain and I still like her as one. I’d rather Cozy Glow stays a villain because it’s more fun that way. I don’t even want Cozy Glow to be reformed like a lot of people. When did it become a thing where it’s actually bad to call a fictional character villain? Villains are some of the best elements of a fiction and I’d rather not try to justify their actions to turn them less villainous, because that’s just not fun. Mr. Freeze is one of the most sympathetic character ever but he is still a villain because his actions are extreme. I like both Azula’s cruelty and her tragic side, but that doesn’t make everything she’s done okay. Seriously, when did we become so obsessed with either victimizing a villain character or not believing they’re villains at all? Can’t we just be back to thinking something as simple as “Villains are so scary and cool!”?

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AC97

@TwiNet

And yes, not a villain. As I best know it, a villain is a character who does something purely because they wish to see suffering, while an antagonist is a character whose goals go against those of the protagonist. Yes Chrysalis clearly takes some enjoyment out of the process, but what can’t be written off as simply seeing your plan come to fruition?

You can be an actual villain while having selfless goals, you know that, right? The term for that is “anti-villain,” except I don’t think, even going off just her debut, that she can be said to qualify as such, due to her attitude clearly conveying her extreme narcissism throughout, due to her attitude that can’t be anything other than sadism. She’s literally singing about how she doesn’t love Shining Armor, but she’s happy to have him as a possession, or how she gets angry with him for simply disagreeing with her; her actions before she was revealed as the Big Bad Evil Guy were evocative of an abusive relationship.

She’s very obviously narratively meant to be the moral low ground in comparison to Twilight, and literally every other character in the finale. Her stated goals emphasize the power she gains from it, not salvation from starvation. Hence, she’s a villain. You don’t sadistically taunt someone about how no one cares about them, and then (presumably) try to arrange them into murdering (or severely injuring) someone thinking it’s you, if you’re not meant to be a villain.

The terms “villain” and “antagonist” tend to only be separated when the antagonist is on an equal or higher moral ground as compared to the protagonists, but in a setting such as MLP, where morality in major conflicts largely boil down to being black and white, this just isn’t something that fits. Starlight Glimmer was also a villain, even if she had good intentions on some level.

Queen Chrysalis: [laughing] It’s no use. No one can hear you. And no one will ever think to look for you, either. Most ponies have forgotten that these caves even exist, which is why they are the ideal place to keep the ones who try to interfere with my plans. [laughing]
Twilight Sparkle: Plans? What plans?
Queen Chrysalis: The plans I have for your brother, of course.
Twilight Sparkle: Don’t you dare do anything to my brother, you… you monster!
Queen Chrysalis: Only way to stop me is to catch me! [laughing] Over here! [laughing] Nope, over here! [laughing]

I think it also says something that she’s ignorant enough of the power of love, to not see value in it, to be defeated in a way extremely similar to how the Windigos were repelled, or that she didn’t seem to give the slightest shit about looking into the possibility of getting Cadance to cast love spells for a bolstered food supply, since, y’know, she didn’t appear to care in the slightest about her well-being, judging by how she, again, didn’t care about provoking Twilight into a murderous rage.

@TexasUberAlles

And she was just running on pure revenge for the rest of her appearances in the series; the only time she even mentions her former hive in the Series Finale is when she says that after defeating Equestria the terrible trio can go back and rule their own kingdoms alone.

That’s actually wrong, it is NOT what she was saying there, because it’s not actually about the hive.

Queen Chrysalis: Our pact stands. What we do, we do together. Once we defeat the protectors of Equestria, we can claim this land and rule our kingdoms alone once more.

Take note of her saying “claim this land” in the context of Equestria, and then look forward to her stated plan with the Windigos.

Queen Chrysalis: The harsh weather is the final blow to break the ponies’ spirits. Once Equestria is a frozen wasteland, we’ll use our magic to destroy those windy beasts. Ponies will be so grateful, they’ll do whatever I want!

When you analyze what she said there, and what she said back in The Mean 6:

Queen Chrysalis: Of course I haven’t forgotten Starlight Glimmer! She stole my hive. Turned my subjects against me! So I’ll take her friends away while she watches! And then, I’ll destroy her! [maniacal laughter]
[magic zap]
Queen Chrysalis: With the Elements under my control, I’ll build a new hive of Earth ponies, unicorns, and Pegasi, and I will rule as Queen once again!

To me, it’s very obvious that she’s talking in the context of “replace my former hive with pony subjects/servants to do what I want,” the differences between S8 and S9’s finale being one, she’s eschewed that Elements plan (since they’re gone, and it failed), and two, she’d revised the “torture Starlight” plan to being “all eternity/indefinitely” instead, especially considering she was willing to just off the Mane Six at the end.

It seems rather clear that for her, in her eyes, being “restored to my rightful place” is something that can be satisfied with getting a kingdom of ponies, so long as she can reign as “Queen;” even her saying “Queen of the Changelings” in the S9 premiere doesn’t necessarily lean on the context of “get former hive back,” as opposed to “I’m the greatest apex changeling,” when you take her lack of emphasis on reclaiming her hive in all other dialogue into account.

_{The S9 premiere was also honestly a bit weird in how Chrysalis mentioned her grudge against “Twilight Sparkle and her friends, and they’ll pay for stealing my Kingdom” but not mention Starlight, unlike her other appearances.}

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NavelColt

Snugs are Drugs for Bugs

@TwiNet
The King of Love Bugs is the story’s name, it’s also on my FIMFiction! The book version comes with 39 exclusive artwork as well, and info on that is in the blog linked on my profile. Appreciate the interest!

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