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Fine by me.
It feels like we’re going in circles now, and it’s clear neither of us is going to give the other an inch. So instead of endlessly arguing with each other and writing walls of text making the same points over and over again, how about we just agree to disagree for now and call it a day?
Dashie did things that were just as bad in these episodes and got off scot free or with a slap on her hoof.
Dusty lost everything without any chance of redemption.
That is a clear case of double standards.
No, I´m not.
The goal was to capture the flags as fast as possible, therefor speed was important.
The reason why Dashie clipped her wing was not speed but the fact that she was too close to her partner and could not see what was in front of them.
A little distance would have prevented this.
But not THAT close.
Maybe she should have told her about her clipped wing then.
Because it was just a shove.
It was rude and unnecessary but no reason to lynch Dusty.
It was not the first time that Spitfire encouraged Dusty by telling her that she broke a record and praising her.
And it encouraged her even more.
She did not realize that Dashie hurt her wing (neither did Spitfire) and Dashie never informed her.
It is pretty clear to me that she was trying to save face after the tornado.
Until then to this point she never had a problem with Dashie and loved flying with her.
When she was kicked out she was heartbroken, yet she still cared enough to wave her partner goodbye.
Indeed it would have worked if she had gotten a chance to improve herself.
And Dusty is neither the first nor the last pony who got carried away.
I´m not moving anything.
As soon as Dusty was led away she was already forgotten.
If they had brought her back she would have appeared at least as a background pony in the academy.
It is clear that she would have taken that chance because becoming a Wonderbolt clearly meant the world to her.
Not that it matters; the chance was never offered.
And she also never got a chance to apologize to Dashie because she was led away immediately after her public humiliation and expulsion.
As I already mentioned before (and in the very quote you used), all of those episodes took place after “Wonderbolts Academy”. As such, there was no double standard when Lightning was being reprimanded.
It seems you’re contradicting yourself again.
I’ve already explained to you multiple times why Dash needed to stay close.
Obviously LD wasn’t intentionally trying to injure Dash, but that’s no excuse for ignoring’s RD’s concerns. Moreover, just because you weren’t aware of a possible consequence of your actions doesn’t mean you aren’t responsible for that consequence. There’s a reason negligence is a crime, after all.
You keep telling me it wasn’t serious, but you never explain why.
I already explained to you why she was recording their times. It’s the same reason why Spitfire didn’t inform the cadets beforehand that they were going to be timed. Dash and Dust only found out after they had finished, and as such, there was no incentive other than Dust’s impatience for them to speed through the course.
I don’t see how that makes a difference; the cadets weren’t training to become pegasi. My point still stands; tornadoes the territory of the weather ponies, not the Wonderbolts.
When? She didn’t care at all that Rainbow’s wing injured and hurting after the flag hunt, and after the tornado she suggested nearly killed the remane 5, she refused to take Dash’s anger seriously.
Indeed it would have if she wasn’t so self-centered.
Way to move the goalposts. Like your conjectures, I’m talking about that specific scene. I’m talking about possibly the weeks or months afterwards.
I’m not entirely sure about that. Given how highly she thinks of herself (and that she never apologized to Dash even after she was in trouble with Spitfire), she might not want to go back to the organization that punished her for behavior that she personally believed was going above and beyond.
Edited
They did everything together and despite being Dustys wingpony Dashie had plenty of opportunities to talk to Spitfire about her concerns.
There is no need to punish Dashie but there is no justification to punish Dusty so excessiv.
It is not irrelevant because it shows clear double standards.
It is not about the speed, it is about is distance.
Dashie was too close.
What was neither intended nor noticed.
Once again, it was rude but not serious.
And yet she stopped their time and even told them that they made another new record.
As I already said, Dusty was too ambitious on that day.
But all Wonderbolts are Pegasi.
This is nothing some additional training couldn´t fix.
And it is clear that she at least cared about Dashie.
It would have certainly worked for Dusty, too.
But of course she could not get her second chance.
It is you who make assumptions.
Nopony even tried, they just stood there and watched.
It is very clear that becoming a Wonderbolt ment the world to her and that she would have been grateful for a second chance.
Edited
It does, though. Why should Dash be punished for Lightning’s terrible decisions?
That’s irrelevant here. All of those episodes came after “Wonderbolts Academy” anyway.
Are you even reading my comments? I already explained Dash was barely keeping pace. Any slower and she would have been separated from LD.
There is when you ignore the pleas of your partner and she gets injured as a result.
How about instead of continuously repeating the same thing, you give an actual argument? They didn’t just “jostle” them; the entire class got thrown off the course because Lightning just had to speed through it, even though that wasn’t the goal of the exercise and Spitfire had specifically told them not to. That’s is most definitely a serious problem.
She wasn’t timing to see who was fastest; that was just a further means of gauging how well the ponies in each pair are working with each other. Although making it through the course in a reasonable amount of time is a plus, it’s not the main focus of the exercise. Spitfire explained clearly to them that the key of the obstacle course is to work on precision flying.
They were already far in lead. A tornado was absolutely unnecessary to place first or to impress Spitfire.
Last I checked, not all pegasi are Wonderbolts.
If LD thinks she can get by with her “me first” mentality, then she clearly has no idea what the Wonderbolts are all about.
She focusing only on herself at the expense of everyone else. That the exact opposite of being a Wonderbolt.
I won’t deny Spitfire also made some poor choices, but Lightning clearly wasn’t pulling her own weight either. After all, the program worked fine for everypony else.
You’re making a lot of assumptions here. It’s entirely possible she distanced herself from others and refused to accept any outside help. This might have also made it difficult for somepony to get a hold of her. I mean, “Wonderbolts Academy” was all about how strong-willed and independent she was.
Edited
Maybe no excuse but an explanation.
That excuses her somewhat but still doesn´t justify their completely different treatments.
And there is still Tanks for the Memories, Newbie Dash and Non-Compete Clause.
She didn´t had to be far apart from her partner to see that obstacle coming.
Just not THAT close.
There is nothing wrong in wanting to make a good impression (and by the way, she shared the “glory” with her partner).
As I said, they jostled them.
And because it wasn´t a race Spitfire stopped their time.
Dusty thought she and Dashie could pull it off, too.
And if they had succeeded Spitfire would have been more than impressed and both of them would have been well on the way to become Wonderbolts.
What do you want to know?
Pegasi create tornados very often.
And if such a tornado got out of control while a balloon was entering a restricted military airspace…
Of course a reservist is only called upon when he is ready.
The Wonderbolts have many reservists they can choose from; they would choose Dusty when they think she had enough training to be deemed ready and not earlier.
She wants to be a Wonderbolt, just like Dashie.
There is nothing wrong with that.
No, she did not.
Instead of even trying to work with her and help her to improve she humiliated and expelled her for the behaviour she encouraged all the time until it became inconvenient.
If Dusty had a better captain she would have become a great Wonderbolt.
Exactly.
Spitfire didn´t care at all what happened to one of her best fliers.
Dashie never tried to help her partner out or find out what happened to her.
The Mane 6 never cared either; not even the Princess of Friendship.
Dusty just disappeared heartbroken and wasn´t seen again.
Very forgiving indeed.
Edited
Still no excuse for the tornado.
Dash was merely a follower; Dust was the one making all the reckless decisions for the both of them. RD initially complied with Lightning only because she didn’t want to risk blowing her one chance at achieving her life’s dream.
But they can’t be far apart either. Dash was barely keeping up with her lead-pony before she injured her wing.
True, but Dust was still going far faster than necessary. And it wasn’t to win the competition for her team either; she just wanted the glory of being the first to find a flag.
They knocked literally everyone else aside simply because Dust was too impatient. And this was after Spitfire had specifically instructed the cadets that the course wasn’t a race and that placement doesn’t matter.
Did you even read my comment? She was only okay with it because she thought Dash & Dust successfully pulled it off. She had absolutely no idea how out of control it actually was.
This really isn’t a debate anymore if you’re just going to ignore what I write.
Except they wouldn’t train specifically for that. Wonderbolts don’t usually set off tornadoes. And even if they did, they definitely wouldn’t assign just two pegasi per tornado. After all, not even Dash and Dust–the two most athletic cadets there–were able to handle it.
That’s exactly my point. Reserves still need be able to act as a full Wonderbolt when the time comes. So those who wish to train to become a reserve should have a basic knowledge of the Wonderbolt organization–including the fact that the Wonderbolts work as a team.
Are you really going to argue she never did anything for her own personal gain?
Spitfire did. And while she wanted Dust to put in her all, at no point did the Captain ever tell her to ignore everypony else and focus only on herself.
How do you know? We never saw her again after that episode.
Edited
That may be true but Dusty wanted her and Dashie to be even more outstanding.
It is pretty clear that she did.
And no, it is not appropriate; especially since Dashie did everything she did and also several other things that were just as bad.
I don´t want Dashie to be kicked out but this are double standards.
And once again, she didn´t have to be that close to her partner. They don´t have to be glued together.
And the main focus was to get the flags as fast as possible.
Dashie and Dusty just jostled them.
This is rude but hardly an unforgivable crime.
She still was ok with the idea of a tornado.
Once again; no more tornados for Dusty.
That is why she needs further training and guidance.
By the way, if the Wonderbolts had trained to create tornados (Hurricane Fluttershy) on that day the result could easily have been the same.
When a Wonderbolt falls out and you are ready; therefor the training.
No, she was humiliated and kicked out.
And teamwork is something she could have learned if Spitfire just had given her the chance.
To pretty much everypony but her.
That’s better.
And as I’ve told you many times, using a tornado was completely unnecessary. Dash and Dust were already well in the lead when the latter suggested it.
We don’t know that Spitfire expelled her from the academy (which wouldn’t have been an inappropriate punishment anyway). It’s entirely possible she just demoted LD and then sent her back to the barracks.
There is no evidence of that in the episode.
When will you stop ignoring facts from the episode? Dash had no choice but to stay close to Dust. According to the rules, the pairs of lead pony and wingpony must remain together at all times or be disqualified, which would effectively cut a team in half from four ponies to only two. While speed is certainly helpful, it’s not the main focus of the challenge. Moreover, Rainbow at one point did ask Lightning to slow down, but she ignored RD’s request.
How is sending the rest of the class flying off the course “not serious”?
That’s only because at the time she was still unaware of the havoc the tornado had caused. I’m sure if she was also aware RD and LD had actually lost control of it, her tone would be different.
The fact that everyone walked out of it unscathed does not make it any less of a serious matter. Should we not investigate a plane crash because no one died? Moreover, if that instructor hadn’t bolted out of the way in time or if Rainbow hadn’t quickly jumped into action to save her friends, they all would have been seriously injured.
The problem isn’t just that she decided to use a tornado. The real issue is that she’s developed a mentality that often leads her to these kinds of decisions. No sane pegasi would think to use a tornado for that activity, especially when they already have such a huge lead. Even Dash felt uncomfortable with idea.
And as part of the reserve, you can be called in at any time to perform. That’s kind of how reserves work, even in real life.
And she did. But she botched it up by always thinking only of herself instead of working with others. I mean, all the other cadets certainly received invaluable training.
I think you’re forgetting just how forgiving ponies in Equestria are.
Once again Lightning did not intend to harm anypony; the tornado was an accident.
Watching her cadets is her job.
It would have been enough to correct Dustys behaviour if Spitfire took ten minutes a day to talk with her in private.
If she really did realize nothing (I don´t think so) that does not speak for her.
In this case she still has no excuse for not helping Dusty to improve after the tornado.
If she saw what happened and chose to ignore it (much more likely) that does not speak for her either.
In this case it also makes her a hypocrite.
No, I will not blame Dusty for Dashies injury. Speed was essential in the flag capture course and Dashie should not have flied that close to her partner.
Dashie and Dusty did that together.
And it was indeed rude but certainly not serious.
We should not forget the second part.
In other words the only other casualty was a board.
There is an easy solution to this problem; in future Dusty will refrain from using tornados.
No, that is part of the training to become part of the reserve.
It was the first step to become a Wonderbolt.
Dusty had every right to expect that she gets proper training.
She did not get what she deserved.
A stigma that will rob her of many chances she will never get now and that will stay with her the rest of her life.
Then how do you explain this:
I don’t know about you, but those two statements sure sound like opposites to me.
She assumed Dust was a grown pony with the maturity to not put others in harm’s way, not some toddler that needs to be watched all the time.
That doesn’t even make any sense. How can Spitfire possibly call out LD for recklessness if she doesn’t even know LD is behaving recklessly in the first place?
It was still something that hadn’t gone according to plan. Dash’s injury could have been avoided if LD didn’t insist on speeding through the flag capture course at full speed. Moreover, I’d certainly consider Dust sending the entire class in tailspins on the obstacle course a “serious incident”.
She still admitted it was over the top and unexpected.
Now you’re just ignoring facts of the episode. Dash and Dust lost control of the tornado before the balloon even showed up. It shredded a chalkboard to pieces and nearly swallowed up an instructor. Had it moved in the direction of the academy, it would have easily destroyed the buildings or injured the other cadets.
The cadets applied to the academy specifically for the chance to become a Wonderbolt. Spitfire has every right to expect they already know that being part of an elite flying squadron requires working with others on the team.
An obstacle she can easily overcome once she learns to be more considerate of others. She already has an attractive skill set going for her.
She also listened to much to Spitfires praise.
I do not contradict myself.
And she was the scapegoat because the episode chose to ignore the faults and mistakes of everypony else and put all the blame and punishment on her and pretend that the excessive punishment and humiliation is a good thing.
She ignored her methods; this is silent approval.
And Lightning didn´t intend to harm anypony.
She had plenty opportunities for several days.
Not realizing anything does not speak for her.
After the tornado it was clear that Lightning needed additional training and guidance but of course Spitfire could not be bothered to do that.
No.
The only serious incident was the tornado.
What she did and Rainbow did on the obstacle course was rude and unnecessary but not dangerous.
Spitfire was fine with the tornado, she actually was very impressed.
The tornado also would have been harmless if the balloon did not show up at this very moment.
And THAT is not Lightnings fault.
Once again it was Spitfires job to teach her cadets all that.
I am everything but impressed with her competence.
Except she is dishonourable discharged thanks to Spitfire and that will be a obstacle for the rest of her life.
And even if we ignore that it still does not excuses her cruel treatment.
Becoming a Wonderbolt obviously meant the world to her and that was taken away from her in the harshest way possible.
Edited
Then what did she do wrong? Because so far every mistake on her part I can think of you’ve attributed to other characters.
The fact you just contradicted yourself aside, it’s declarations like these that make it hard for me to believe your claim she shares guilt with the others.
Spitfire was praising Dust for her achievements. Not for putting others in harm’s way.
Before the tornado, Spitfire was unaware Dust was the source of the problems. She probably didn’t witness the exact moment Dash injured her wing following LD, and it was impossible for her to see through the clouds in the obstacle course.
Something had gone wrong on three separate occasions by the time LD was reprimanded.
Twilight’s balloon is not an excuse for using a clearly overkill and risky technique (Spitfire herself admits this) during a routine training exercise. Also, you might want to re-watch the episode, because the balloon had nothing to do with “messing up the tornado”. By the time Twilight’s balloon made it to the academy, Lighting and Rainbow had already lost control of it.
It was Spitfire’s job to teach them specifically how teamwork factors into the Wonderbolts. The students should have been aware well before entering the academy that the Wonderbolts work and function as a team. If they don’t even understand that, I have to question if they even know who the Wonderbolts are. All the cadets with the sole exception of Lightning Dust did appear to have that knowledge.
While Dust was understandably saddened by the whole affair, it’s not like Spitfire took away her flying prowess or anything. She might not become a Wonderbolt, but her life is far from over. For a talented flier like her, there are still a lot opportunities out there.
I always said that she is not the only one to blame, I never said that she did nothing wrong.
Yes, she overestimated herself with the tornado and she should be more careful but that is no excuse for her horrible treatment.
Lightning Dust was the scapegoat for everything what went wrong in this Episode and her punishment was beyond excessive.
She encouraged it by doing nothing but praising her. At any point (even after the tornado) she could have talked to her in private and correct her behaviour but she was far too busy signing autographs to do her job.
Spitfire didn´t even try to improve her, she just threw her away as soon as something went wrong.
So Lightning somehow knew about a balloon entering a restricted military airspace during training and intentionally messed up the tornado?
It was Spitfires job to teach her cadets that.
She did not do her job.
If Lightning already knew everything she needed she could have skipped the academy.
Lightning was publicly humiliated in front of the whole academy, stripped of her badge and led away completely heartbroken and devastated to be never seen again.
With the exception of Trixie there is no other character that was treated so horrible.
I dare to say that she is not alright.
Edited
And I concur with you there is blame to go around. But I have to ask you: what do you consider Lightning Dust liable for? Because each and every time I (or someone else) try to have her take responsibility for something from that episode, you deflect it onto another character. And although you’ve clearly laid out the mistakes the others made, I’ve yet to see you give Dust anything in particular to be guilty over.
As for Spitfire, while she might have inadvertently exacerbated Dust’s reckless behavior, she had nothing whatsoever to do with with Dust’s “put myself first and disregard everyone” attitude. All Spitfire encouraged Lightning to do was push herself to the limit; she never instructed her at any point to ignore the well-being of the other students while doing so. Is it too much of her to assume her cadets would have the common sense to not put others in danger? Or that since they were training to become Wonderbolts, they would understand the basics of teamwork? And finally, LD, for all her faults, is still an incredibly talented flier; even if Spitfire did expel her completely from the academy (we don’t know that for certain), making a comfortable living would not be particularly difficult for her.
Edited
I cannot agree on this part.
Everypony was to blame in this situation (including the Mane 6) but all the blame was put on Lightning.
The very least Spitfire could have done is to give Lightning the training and guidance she needed afterwards.
Instead she publicly humiliated her and expelled her without even a warning or a chance to better herself.
This cannot be justified or excused; she failed Lightning completely.
Spitfire’s job is to oversee the entire operation and record the top windspeed. She’s not supposed to interfere or actively involve herself with the process in any way. If the Ponyville pegasi end up failing, Cloudsdale would probably just select another town and water source for the job.
Although she herself wasn’t out there all the time, there was always an instructor watching the students at any given moment. She had fairly assumed all her students would understand basic decency and teamwork. And she wasn’t entirely wrong either; of all the trainees present, only Lightning Dust was engaging in any sort of reckless behavior. Moreover, none of the incidents–save for the tornado–were serious enough for Spitfire to commit to watching her trainees every single second. And while Spitfire might have inadvertently encouraged LD’s behavior, Dust has no one to blame for her own actions but herself.
You act like she intentionally bailed on Dash, when that was anything but the case. Spitfire actually invited Dash to join her and the rest of the Wonderbolts for the Gala. RD ended up getting separated from them because of all the ponies that were there. And when she finally did get close to them again, they couldn’t hear her over the crowd. In addition, the Wonderbolts were celebrity guests, so Rainbow was far from the only one at the gala vying for their attention.
Spitfire’s failure to curb LD’s recklessness earlier is not an excuse for Dust’s own self-centered mentality and lack of awareness. And definitely not for nearly killing the mane 6 and then refusing to accept the seriousness of the situation.
You’d be surprised how strong a person can be when they’re running off of adrenaline. People have gotten broken bones after being struck by someone that was flailing in panic. Spitfire should just be thankful that Rarity’s hit didn’t decapitate her.
It’s one thing to find her boring, but to claim she has no personality at all is just ridiculous. Episodes such as “Maud Pie”, “Rock Solid Friendship”, and “The Maud Couple” all illustrate that she has feelings and thoughts beneath that stoic face she puts on. She isn’t lacking in personality; she just expresses herself differently. As Maud once stated herself, “I don’t know if you’ve noticed, but I don’t show my enthusiasm for things quite in the same way my sister does.”
For many, that also describes Maud.
Although rocks are her primary interest and thus what she enjoys talking about the most, Maud is more than capable of talking about non-geology related topics. Just look at “Maud Pie” or “Rock Solid Friendship”.
I bet you’re one of those people who think “no offense” makes saying something offensive or mean okay. Anyway, while you can love Trixie as much as you want, she is not a flawless character. No one in this show is. That’s a fact. Heck, not even Sethisto, one of the biggest Trixie fanboys out there, thinks she’s “flawless” or perfect.
Edited