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What to do when Twilight approaches in such a menacing way?
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well were grounded
Yeah, he said it’s “too serious” and there was no comedy. I won’t name names, but they don’t like the show anymore and are one of those “not happy with anything” fans.
Not surprised. Statistically, there’s always got to be a few people who’ve got to be ‘that guy’.
@Background Pony #9576
I remember, but between the emotional roller coaster ride, and the alagory of death that was apparent to RD and most of RD’s friends, it passed pretty quickly. Even if she wasn’t punished, she spent the end of the episode being emotionally distraught. Not exactly the ‘end the episode blameless and smelling like roses’ theme like a ton of Twilight episodes are.
Have you forgotten all the wailing and gnashing of teeth when RD “got away” with destroying the weather factory in “Tanks for the Memories”?
I’ve seen one guy here make some total B.S. criticisms on why that was a bad episode.
I don’t know, I think they try to develop her phoned-in barbie storyline in the premiers and finales WAY more then they try to develop her character personality, growth or moral-wise. I honestly believe that Amending Fences counted more then most of the premiers and finales S3 and beyond combined in terms of growth of actual character for Twilight, especially since a ton of them go into the negative range.
Character growth and story growth can be two very different things. It shouldn’t be the case, but Twilight isn’t in the premiers and finales to grow, she’s in them cause she’s so easily lead around the plot by protagonists and villains alike.
The only problem is that the writers seem to think Twilight can’t grow as a character, or more precisely, think she can only grow during premieres and finales.
Sadly she isn’t the only character to suffer from that currently.
Au contraire.
One thing I’ve noticed is that very, very few people complained about the episode devoted to making her grow as a person, Amending Fences.
If they go with that direction of characterization, the largest consensus of people won’t be upset because her character development wouldn’t be going backwards, which has been a major problem with her character.
Also, the only reason that people emphasize her problems so much is that the show tends to beat around the bush with her character and the problems and solutions she makes almost infinitely more then most fictional characters. In contrast to RD, who qualifies for the trope “Can’t get away with Nothin’”, everything is all laid flat out for the audience.
Its actually quite logical when you think about it.
I love this show’s animation team.
My point was regardless how they portray Twi’ fans get upset. If she’s nice, or solves the episode’s problem, “she’s a perfect Su.” If she’s flawed, or creates a problem, (like this episode) suddenly, “she’s heartless.” (Honestly, I think others have behaved worse.)
Fans have become very divided on the character, and it’s impossible to please all sides regardless what they do with her. Some will always exaggerate her positive, or negative traits, is all I was saying.
Edited
Also agreed :)
Replace ‘evil’ with ‘lack of empathy’. Extremely different when it comes to Twilight. When trying to be a good student, Twilight has a naturally helpful personality, however she will always prioritize following Celestia’s expectations and it will almost always override any empathy she has for others.
As most fans know, Twilight is NOT an empathy driven character. Amending Fences was created as a testament of that and Twilight finally figuring out some real empathy near the end of the episode.
Agreed. I really hope we see Twilight get some sort of punishment for the fiasco that was this episode; she really stepped over a bunch of lines.
(Note I have the “Twilight is flawless” people in a separate group than the “Twilight Sue” people.)
@DragonWraith
I think your vision of why and why people call Twilight a Mary Sue is a bit skewed.
(In regards to magic and stuff Mary Sue-wise, thats discussed less and there are no solid answers for that yet)
When applied to Twilight’s actions and morality, it doesn’t have a thing to do with her being accused of being ‘flawless’. Very few people accuse Twilight of being perfect, thus a Sue. Quite the opposite. On that side, people accuse Twilight of being a Sue in that she does tons of things wrong but can get away with everything while being treated like she could do no wrong. Which is unfortunately true due to the writing surrounding Twilight, minus a few episodes and EG movies.
I don’t get that, ‘cause honestly, I don’t think she behaved that badly this episode. (And her distrust of Trixie felt somewhat justified, as she feared she was going to take Glimmer down a darker path.)
@DragonWraith
Agreed. I don’t get why some see a flaw as being “evil,” or those who still insist Twi’ is a “flawless Su.” As you said BOTH sides are blowing it out of proportion.
You mean her lack of independent will and need for dependency to someone else like Celestia guiding her actions since Season 1, is a extremely realistic flaw in real life that is neither to be admired OR demonized?
I’m not going to post a slowpoke gif but..
…(shrug)..
..we kind of already knew that ages ago. That’s why, along with her early quirks, we were okay with Twilight being one of the main characters to begin with, despite her lack of emotional investment compared to the other 5, or most main characters in fiction.
The issue is that it only got worse, especially after the start of Season 3 where this aspect of personality was often used as an excuse to forword the plot, and even outside the big episodes almost nobody would point those flaws out.
All the main characters have flaws. Applejack, Rarity, and Pinkie Pie have all made great character progression from their initial inflexibilities, Rainbow Dash has grown in leaps and bounds due to her extreme personality of both her egotistical mask and her selfless core, and Fluttershy’s growth has been a little slower then the others due to us not knowing much about her besides her surface insecurities.
We expect protagonists to suffer and grow from their mistakes, something that rarely happens to Twilight and is often never addressed. That part isn’t realistic, which is why Twilight haters are so common and why overprotective ‘if you don’t like Twilight, don’t watch the show’ type people, or fanatical Twilight apologists as you put it, go to such extremes to defend her character.
Edited
Cool :)
It’s all good. We just interpret actions and scenes differently.
After thinking about it all day, I find myself in total agreement with you.
@PonyPon
Not really, because after thinking about it all day, I find myself more accepting of Twilight’s actions in that scene. Not her motivations, mind you, since I feel they came about through asinine reasoning on her part. I’ll expand on this more in the S6 discussion thread, but TL;DR Twilight wanting to choose a friend for Starlight in an attempt to please Celestia takes an episode that in my opinion would be nigh-flawless and downgrades it to merely pretty good.
“Perhaps Twilight does feel animosity towards Trixie, but if she does, she hides it well.”
Not really, first scene Twilight saw Trixie again, Twilight’s face and words were filled with animosity. End of Magic Duel, it was still filled with disdain as well. I’d have to disagree that her animosity towards Trixie is hidden, even if its not as outspoken as Trixie’s. Trixie is pretty theatric afterall.
…
“We hardly know much of Twilight’s opinion on most ponies, while Trixie’s almost revolve around Twilight. It’s a problem of character interaction.”
That we can definitely agree on. Like I said before, Twilight is not an empathy driven character, so her personal relationships are not emotionally necessary to her. She treats most issues as a problem that needs a solution
…
“You can’t accept the idea Trixie is just naturally egotistic without accepting that Twilight is just naturally neurotic when it comes to Celestia.”
I fully accept both. But I don’t see how her neurosis with Celestia is an excuse for damning Trixie on just her first few seconds of her arrival. (at least, not yet) Maybe after Twilight tried to make peace and came to the conclusion that Trixie was a lost cause, that would explain it, but her immediate holier then thou attitude towards Trixie… one has to attribute partially to lack of strength of character on Twilight’s part. Again, not saying Trixie’s blameless, but Trixie’s life is a maelstrom of misfortune, the antithesis of Twilight’s life. Twilight should understand this by now, but I’m starting to believe she literally can’t yet.
In fact, I have sort of a working theory on why Twilight and Trixie are oil and fire, although this is just a theory so take it with a grain of salt. From what I can tell, Trixie is the exact antithesis of Celestia and the way Celestia raised Twilight, to a very extreme degree. The very idea that someone so completely different from her experience of attitude, status, morality and hardship…is completely in Twilight’s face as a very open and personal rival, and it just sets the borders of her mind on fire. Twilight never imagined that someone so opposite from her would be so obsessed with confronting Twilight’s way of life. Subconsciously there may be a side of Twilight who realizes how opposite she is to Trixie, and Trixie’s contrasting life acts as a dose of reality Twilight is woefully unprepared to even think about. Thus causing her mind to reject Trixie completely.
…
“Twilight wasn’t interested in getting to know the new Trixie for the reasons I stated above. In her eyes, she was a thorn on the side, an unnecessary variable that decided to add itself to her lesson and the meeting with Celestia. She was already neurotic from the start due to the Celestia meeting.”
I mostly agree, but for slightly different reasons. As much of a tool Twilight is, she does normally have a helpful personality as her default, even if she has a trouble with real empathy. Her apathy towards her acquaintances from her old life in Canterlot was actually hinted as far back as the Mystery Train episode where she treated Donut Joe like crap. Discord has made it a hobby to get under Twilight’s skin cause its the best way to get to Celestia. So Trixie is in a slightly different category. If it was any other unknown variable, it would cause stress. But with the Great and Powerful Trixie, all that came out was loathing.
…
“I mention the controlling aspect because a lot of people are saying that Twilight was trying to control Starlight and outright prevent her from being friends with Trixie. She wasn’t”
That I’d have to disagree with you on completely. She was doing everything in her power to prevent Starlight from being friends with Trixie beyond outright forcing her, which I already addressed in my previous comment, wasn’t even an option. Her trying to push the issue while ignoring Starlight’s feelings was the valid reason Starlight skipped Twilight’s self-indulgent ‘pet project’ party to impress Celestia. The only reason that Twilight finally said that Starlight should make her own choices was after she royally screwed up Starlight and Trixie’s friendship, and Trixie’s pain and regret from what she screwed up and said after Twilight dug up old wounds were so obvious, that even Twilight couldn’t ignore it.
…
“The issue within the episode, which is an issue in real life that’s very often overlooked, is communication. It would’ve solved so much had anyone actually directly talked to each other and said their piece EARLY.”
Both Trixie and Starlight have 100 issues that prevent them from communicating easily. Sure they were all partially at fault for communication, but what was Twilight’s excuse?
Plus, Starlight DID say her piece to Twilight fairly early on, and Twilight IGNORED it.
….
“(Before you say Twilight outright ignored Starlight, she didn’t. I take the Cranky one as more rule of funny).”
What? No, that’s just stupid. Twilight’s flagrant disregard for her opinion was one of the reasons she ditched the party. Rule of funny does not apply when serious emotions are being hurt, the only thing rule of funny meant in that situation was it was almost comical how messed up and desperate Twilight was at the moment. Not big news to the audience, but a refreshing pace for the narrative which usually ignores it.
Plus, don’t underestimate the feeling of being’s one pet project to be shown off. Starlight finally found somebody who empathized and understood her. An empathetic friend. Starlight’s friendship with Trixie is way more sincere and real then her friendship with Twilight. Starlight outright admitted that Trixie’s the first to really understand her.
…
“Starlight knew of the importance of the meeting to Twilight but she ignored it and acted on impulse to help Trixie (since Trixie herself guilt-tripped Starlight to choose her over her own teacher).”
That I don’t find correct in the least. In-the-bush Twilight betrayed Starlight’s trust by ignoring her feelings completely and not even trying to sympathize as she suggested Cranky be her new friend. Trust had been broken by then, so if this is a friendship and not community service, Starlight was under no obligation to come to Celestia’s party anymore To be honest, Trixie’s guilt tripping was barely even necessary, it just made Starlight realize that trust on Twilight’s end had been broken by Twilight.
Also, ‘teacher’? Twilight treats this ‘teacher’ position like a project and every lesson plan Twilight has cooked up has been a complete train wreck. She’s a teacher in name only, there’s little empathy or loyalty in the relationship, and even Twilight admitted at the end of the premier she really didn’t contribute anything teacher related.
…
“She could’ve gone and asked Twilight or heck, told Celestia directly about what was happening.”
Are you kidding me? Like Twilight would ever mention Trixie, the variable in her life she gets angriest at, to Celestia. The whole point of the episode on Twilight’s side towards Trixie was that Twilight would never be willing to do that. And about Starlight, Starlight doesn’t even know Celestia. Your scenarios for pushing blame off Twilight are a little ridiculous.
….
I think we’ve pretty much discussed this issue to its fullest. Everything we disagree on currently is that of completely and totally different viewpoints that we simply can’t rationalize from each other, and the rest we agree on. Speaking of which…
“For the record, I blame Celestia. She’s the indirect cause of, and solution to, almost all of the problems in the show.”
AMEN TO THAT.
Quite. I don’t like typing out long responses. Did that enough in debate class.
There was hardly any tension. You do realize that it’s clear everything being felt at all between Twilight and Trixie THAT’S BEEN SHOWN is almost solely on Trixie’s side. Perhaps Twilight does feel animosity towards Trixie, but if she does, she hides it well. We hardly know much of Twilight’s opinion on most ponies, while Trixie’s almost revolve around Twilight. It’s a problem of character interaction. You could say Twilight doesn’t like egotistical and snarky ponies. Would that be a flaw of hers? Possibly since Princess of Friendship.
Trixie already made a bad impression to begin with. I’m sure if she made her entrance less grandiose Twilight wouldn’t have much reason to suspect her. It would’ve been some initial distrust, then acceptance much like with Sunset in Rainbow Rocks. You can’t accept the idea Trixie is just naturally egotistic without accepting that Twilight is just naturally neurotic when it comes to Celestia. The episode was a clash between all this and it showed.
Twilight wasn’t interested in getting to know the new Trixie for the reasons I stated above. In her eyes, she was a thorn on the side, an unnecessary variable that decided to add itself to her lesson and the meeting with Celestia. She was already neurotic from the start due to the Celestia meeting.
I mention the controlling aspect because a lot of people are saying that Twilight was trying to control Starlight and outright prevent her from being friends with Trixie. She wasn’t. She was discouraging it, while keeping tabs on Starlight and Trixie, and eventually gave Starlight the choice to be her friend without acting as the supervisor. While true, she shouldn’t attempt to control her own student’s actions like that (and she states that most sincerely at the end), it’s understandable (to me) why.
The issue within the episode, which is an issue in real life that’s very often overlooked, is communication. It would’ve solved so much had anyone actually directly talked to each other and said their piece EARLY. Starlight knew of the importance of the meeting to Twilight but she ignored it and acted on impulse to help Trixie (since Trixie herself guilt-tripped Starlight to choose her over her own teacher). Even though Starlight was feeling animosity towards Twilight due to her CONSTANT VIGILANCE!, it was not reason to outright ignore her. (Before you say Twilight outright ignored Starlight, she didn’t. I take the Cranky one as more rule of funny). She could’ve gone and asked Twilight or heck, told Celestia directly about what was happening. Everyone would’ve won. Celestia would’ve been entertained, Twilight gets to showcase her student, Starlight gets to help out Trixie, and Trixie gets to perform her trick.
It was a perfect storm of events.
For the record, I blame Celestia. She’s the indirect cause of, and solution to, almost all of the problems in the show.