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Agreed.
This is getting pretty meta here.
That’s a very, VERY good question. A few other people have asked that question outloud, and I certainly don’t have an answer.
Before Rainbow Rocks, I would of likely leaned toward saying bad writing in my opinion, but now I’m not sure. Were we supposed to question if Celestia was right or not until Rainbow Rocks where Twilight is asked to sit down by a new, stronger protagonist who is Celestia’s thematic successor?
The only other clue I can think of that definitely hints at a more meticulous, artsy theme is the top-notch dialogue Discord has in Princess Twilight Sparkle and Three’s a Crowd. While some of his dialogue is his normal flavor of clever trolling, a lot of lines I can recount in those episodes seemed deeply probing, thought provoking, and capable of causing reasonable doubt in things. And not in the negative, evil way either. Pretty damn artsy dialogue for the straightforward theme of the episodes.
I agree with @PonyPon. It depends greatly on who you ask, the answer would vary greatly based on observation and perspective. And the creators themselves aren’t exactly open about explaining the endgame here, so our guesswork range is absolutely enormous.
Depends on who you ask.
…Does the fact that it has so many divergent interpretations make it poorly written or make it art?
Look, how about we call this a rest. One thing we can definitely agree on is a lot of the character development was all over the place in S4, and a lot of the episodes, especially the finale, led a lot of contrasting possibilities for interpretation. That’s fair enough right?
Trade Ya was an example of an episode with no consistant moral message on Twilight’s end…she ‘learned’ a lesson that made no sense on the situation. They aren’t all perfect.
Most shows the interpretations are clear cut and mostly one-sided. S4 of MLP:FiM, together with Rainbow Rocks, has a lot of contrasting messages when merged together. Interpretation with Twilight and Discord AND Celestia could go either way, and its confusing why they did that. It would of made more sense for Celestia to give them advice on how to open the box instead of Discord just in case Discord betrayed them, but they had Discord do it instead.
Its confusing, so consensus is going to be hard.
He didn’t even know that the Elements of Harmony would be his undoing TWICE. How is he supposed to know exactly what the box would do, how the Mane Six would open it, how it was supposed to help the Mane Six beat Tirek, and work all of that into his master plan? I thought he was just making a suggestion based on past experiences, not an accurate prediction.
And didn’t play safe in RoH? Did we watch the same episode? Yeah, he told them where to find the EoH, but he told them in a very misleading, bizarre fashion that was sure to confuse them, and when it did, he capitalized on that to split the Mane Six apart so that they couldn’t use the Elements. And even if they had guessed it correctly the first time, do you really think he would have let them reach the Elements? Also notice that at no point he gave up his powers and left himself completely vulnerable, nor did he leave himself exposed right up until the end.
That’s your own headcanon opinion and not worth much at all. Back to the facts, he gave them the secrets to the Rainbow of Light that would defeat Tirek PRIOR.
He’s infinitely older then Celestia or Luna, did it ever occur to you he knew what was in the box? And he’s NEVER played things safe, he gave the location of the elements in a riddle to the Mane 6 in his first episode. Why the hell are you pretending he would play things safe now?!
Any assumption that Discord planned all of it is thrown away immediately because it’s such a stupid fucking plan that there’s no way in seven HELLS that Discord would ever come up with it. Discord keeps his plans random, confusing, yet still understandable and in a situation where he’s clearly coming out on top. Not to mention that making it all part of some grand plan also negates any character development that he had (Oh, he wasn’t conflicted between his selfish desires and his new life, he was just fucking with everybody, so riveting), as well as erases any tension in the episode, because apparently everything happened because it was intended to happen.
Seriously? You think that Discord planned this whole contrived plan so that Celestia could make an ass out of herself?
You really think that he put his powers on the table just to vex Celestia? Something that he didn’t even succeed?
Again, why did you chastise me for using headcanon to pierce together a personality for Celestia? Because you seem pretty attached to this idea that Discord made this monumentally stupid and complex plan just to make Celestia look bad (Are you implying that Celestia is a shitty ruler on that first paragraph, by the way? Because… no.), and that Twilight being nervous about living up to being a princess is some sort of grand arc being set up that will expose Celestia for the irresponsible monster that she is instead of just McCarthy transfusing personality traits that she herself identifies with the most onto Twilight.
Ehh please. He explained why he delayed the facts about Twilight. He wanted to make sure that Tirek is worthy of his trust and after recieving his medallion he was fully on his side. He didnt teleport him to Twilight because Twilight was stronger than him. So he lured mane5 and Spike into a trap and served them to Tirek. It was also DISCORD plan to use them as a hostages and trading card. Do you even watch the show?
When the person you’re manipulating is as predictable and dumb as G4 Tirek, there’s not much to risk. Any conclusion that Discord didn’t plan any of it is immediately thrown away by actual events you refuse to address. Those are the facts. Whether you continue to whine about them is your choice. See ya.
A trickster doesn’t want to be excessively cruel. A neutral trickster is an agent of chaos, not evil. In his past he helped dismantle a kingdom based on darkness and order for a rebellion.
Sure, he’s going to be on more people’s shitlist like Shining Armor and he’ll have to be a little cruel to Fluttershy, but that’s how badly Celestia seemed wanted Twilight to be on a pedastal. Luna was, again, initially against this line of action. (and we saw how that affected Twilight in Rainbow Rocks :/ ).
At least Discord did his part and delayed Tirek finding out about Twilight for as long as he could. Discord could sense magical disturbences right? He could of teleported over to Twilight and captured her in a heartbeat.
Either way, we factual know that when he said he ‘didn’t see this coming’, it was a lie. He helped give the hints to the Rainbow of Light, and he wasn’t even the least bit surprised by its power or that the emblem became the key.
Again, stick to the facts.
He’s an hyper-smart ancient demigod, maybe he just pierced together what the box could do by virtue of being knowledgeable enough about how those things work.
Sorry, but I have to apply Occam’s Razor here. I find the fact that Discord’s psyche was played with a lot more believeable than him planning on the Mane Six managing to pierce together how to open the puzzle box, how to get Twilight’s key, and counting on whatever was inside it to be able to fight Tirek, as well as him not killing any of the Mane Six.
And keep in mind, he had his POWERS riding on this scheme, I know you’re going to say “Well, he’s the God of Chaos, of course he’s going to be as obtuse and cryptic as possible”. However, I think that his basic sense of self-preservation would advice him against completely giving up his powers for essentially no reason. I mean, hell, he’s the God of Chaos, surely he better than anybody else would know that sometimes your plans don’t go the way you intended?
Sorry, but no. Not only the entire finale being Discord’s plan is very weak from a character’s standpoint, but is absolutely riddled with plotholes.
Im getting tired of this “Discord planned it all along” headcanon. Its as annoying as “Discord is Starswirl”. There were no plan. Meghan just wanted to slithly move Discord arc from “evil” to “pretending to refrom to see what happen” to actually “now i have good reason to reform”. Discord arc is still not over. Comics dwell on the idea that he STILL didnt used his powers to do good. It will probably get tackled in Season 5.
“I prefer to believe on what was presented”
You mean that Discord gave them hints on how to use the Rainbow of Light before he left? Factual stuff that you are denying?
Stick to the facts of their actions, not the headcanons you ‘prefer’.
Y’now, for somebody who chastised me for using headcanon, you’re using plenty of headcanon there yourself.
I prefer to believe on what was presented: Discord was conflicted between his desire to spread chaos and his friends. He choose his selfish desires, but found out that he no longer had the heart to do that, being completely broken once the one thing that had pushed him back towards the dark path turned on him.
And was upset only when Fluttershy was caught in the crossfire? Did you forget the scene where Shining Armor asks Discord how could he do this, and for a moment, he has this look of regret on is face? As if for a moment he realized just how cruel he was being?
Also, I like my characters to change and be emotionally invested in what they do, instead of “LULZ I TRICK EVERYBODY I AM ALWAYS THREE STEPS AHEAD EVERYTHING IS PART OF THE PLAN NOBODY GETS THE DROP ON ME!”. I find these kind of characters intensely boring. It’s cool if a character plans ahead to an extreme degree, but when he starts relying on so many things that could go wrong, my suspension of disbelief is broken.
You guys are kidding right? I love Discord, but he spent the entire arc almost unchanged except he normally doesn’t want to hurt Fluttershy. He gained a lot more character growth in the comics both exploring his past and bonding with the CMC
How could he possibly ‘learn a lesson from Twilight’, when 1) the only person he regretted getting caught in the crossfire was Fluttershy, and 2) he had already planned on the 6 using the Rainbow of Light on Tirek from the beginning of the episode?
You guys have no answers about the hows and why’s of Discord either giving them the clues or how Celestia was able to send Discord, when it was so obvious he was just asked to play the Trickster again and play both sides so Twilight could come up on top.
Seriously, why did you think Discord baited Tirek into baiting him with a freakin angel halo? Its called a con. Duh.
Hell, here’s a DHX approved comic line for after the Season finale, where he’s acting like Fluttershy’s sassy gay friend….
Discord: “Oh it will be so much fun! We can paint each others hooves and swap secrets, then we’ll giggle over plots to overthrow Celestia-”
Fluttershy: “Discord!”
Discord: “I meant boys. Giggle about boys. What did I say?”
XD Classic Discord.
He’s a chaotic neutral character, playing everyone for fools, letting Tirek drain his powers, and fool Twilight into thinking she had taught him a lesson to defeat Tirek with the Rainbow of Light was childsplay. THAT’S THE ONLY REASON HE SET IT UP WITH THEM.
(By the way, I doubt he wants to overthrow Celestia and be ruler, that’s old news to him, but discredit her enough? Oh most definitely. Due to Celestia’s nepotism towards Twilight, he’s got a LOT to work with.)
I like Discord’s better because unlike Twilight I didn’t completely lose interest in him.
Discord arc is probably the most dynamic from entire cast. And only comparable to Twilight. Twilight changed from antisocial bookworm into confident leader and owner of entire kingdom. Discord from disney tier one shot villain into a decent anti hero. He may not be a main character but he surely beat Spike.
Yeah. It was pretty clear that Discord learned his lesson for real this time.
Y’now, say whatever you want about the finale, but I thought that Discord’s character arc in it was really great.
Also the fact that punishing Discord in Twilight Kingdom AFTER he already understood his lesson and knowing that this would upset Fluttershy and probably Twilight too its just a sign of decency and good heart from Celestia.
Not sign of “OMG SHE HAVE A THING FOR BAD BOYZ BETRAYERZ XD”
If Twilight somehow reformed Tirek or he would be willing to change or try to reform then i could expect Celestia to behave the same way toward Tirek as she is toward Discord. She is just forgiving toward anyone. She already punished Discord with 1000 years of looking at grass. If she loved him she would try to reform him earlier. There is no a single sign that would imply that Celestia give a flying feather about him or care more about him than for Mr and Mrs Cake.
I imagine it’s because Celestia has great capacity for forgiveness. For good and for ill.