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O_O
Shining with all his might:
He did his very best to make
The billows smooth and bright–
And this was odd, because it was
The middle of the night.
The moon was shining sulkily,
Because she thought the sun
Had got no business to be there
After the day was done–
“It’s very rude of him,” she said,
“To come and spoil the fun!”
and Rarity has shown she knows plenty about geology when it comes to gems.
I’ll grant that Rarity knows gemology, but I can’t remember her showing much knowledge of geology.
Debates about how literal the concept of destiny is in this series aside, Rarity’s spell is still an example of a spell performing a task of which the caster has only limited knowledge or ability.
If one cog in a machine fails, the entire thing breaks, you can’t risk that.
Depends on the machine. Having a lot of ponies means a lot of redundancy.
One pilot is all a ship needs.
No, the are safely tucked away.
Publicly available resources include a number of dangerous spells, not to mention that the levitation aura is only visible to the audience, being that every unicorn is already capable of moving things without anyone else seeing.
A trained unicorn is more dangerous, but the key to the armory is on the top of every unicorn’s head. That alicorn is the dangerous thing, even if they don’t have training on how to use it.
The only question is whether they want to tour the armory or hit up the machine shop.
Magic isn’t inherently learned, it has to be taught, if everypony had that kind of strength why didn’t Trixie just levitate that Ursa Minor away?
You do realize that strength isn’t taught, right?
Trixie couldn’t levitate the ursa minor not because the levitation spell that seemingly every unicorn pony knows was beyond her, but because she wasn’t that strong.
Why didn’t Twilight just blow that Hydra with her magic laser?
That’s actually a valid question; when did she learn that spell? Of course, she also forgot that she could wink out, so it’s probably a case of the writers forgetting about her magic.
Magic must be learned and even then you must to have the proper ability to.
Your forgetting that spells can be created in the first place. Rarity created her gem detector, Starswirl completed more than two hundred spells, and someone made all of the spells in Twilight’s books. Just being a unicorn means that they can create a horrible dangerous spell. A unicorn pony that likes fighting is going to create magic that relates to fighting because that’s what they use their magic for.
While only Twilight Sparkle has displayed the ability to learn any spell, even just by watching another unicorn cast it, Trixie and Rarity have both displayed the ability to screw over other ponies with minimal effort, even using just levitation or transmutation.
Most importantly, the spells in Twilight’s books were all created by other unicorns. So every nasty trick that she’s used was originally possessed by someone else, and some of those ponies probably weren’t as nice as she was.
What did the creator of the What-it, Need-it spell use it for? How widespread is that horn laser? Why are they multiple reformation spells?
You think that those started out in a book? Some unicorn was running around casting them. The spells aren’t put in the armory until after they’ve been created, and locking the door doesn’t work when another pony with the right talent can create a new version at any time.
It’s still a pretty big weapon to have, food, heat, energy.
It’s big, but kind of unwieldy, very slow and leaves you open to someone else counteracting it or just plain kicking the crap out of you. Not the kind of thing that you can hide, and depends on being willing to screw yourself over in a game of chicken. Not that great on it’s own.
I’d say that mind control is better in a lot of ways, and practically anything would be better as an actual attack. Control of Day and Night only works as a threat when everyone with that ability is on the same side, and given that the unicorns are no longer a united ruling caste, that isn’t the case anymore.
Sombra’s crystal magic was a much better weapon, although it has the weakness of only working on the crystals of the Crystal Empire.
And there are worse spells that could be abused (time travel to name one), but they aren’t exactly easily obtained either…or at least no one thinks to use them, as in the comics Sunset Shimmer managed to take a peek a at least a few of them without being bothered by security of any kind.
That runs into most unicorn ponies only being able to learn a limited about of magic. Magic that they’re talented at, so learning dangerous spells from books is a minor danger, since a pony interesting in that sort of thing could figure it out themselves.
@Background Pony
Yeah, I don’t know either, man. I look at my old posts and can only conclude that dumb luck allowed them to be halfway legible.
If unicorns were able to keep it up for generations, then it fits more into area of spells than anyone can learn than the unique magic trick area.
Alright, re-reading your original statement, I think I mis-interpreted it. Either way, your point is fair.
Discord reigned over Equestria after it was formed but before Celestia and Luna. The unicorns managed the sun and moon even before Equestria was formed.
Unless Celestia and Luna overthrew Discord prior/contemperaneously to taking charge of the sun and moon, he stole it from them both times. We don’t really know which way it goes. Nor, other than a couple of obvious “they weren’t doing stuff before they existed”s, we don’t really know the relative times of their a. being born (assuming they were conventionally born at all), b. becoming alicorns, c. taking political charge, d. taking celestial charge, e. overthrowing Discord.
Does that make a difference? He’s controlled the sun and the moon, and that’s what is being discussed.
In fact, it doesn’t matter.
It would matter if we knew anything about what happens if unicorn magic-users fight for celestial control.
The point is, we don’t know what happens, and therefore the only assumptions we can safely make about what unicorns know about celestial control is that at least some pre-sisters unicorns knew it, and that the sisters know it. Anything beyond that is baseless.
We don’t know why Celestia and Luna never let them start doing it again, and that decision seems odd, given how permissive she is otherwise.
We don’t know that Celestia and Luna ever did “never let them”. ???
God, I noticed all the mistakes I made in that comment. How do I words and sentences?
I’m sorry… I just couldn’t resist posting that. I understand what you mean.
… She made the spell out of thin air when she was a little filly. Literally. She was looking for something special for her designs, and then her horn started taking her on a wild ride.
That’s destiny magic son, no it’s unpredictable by it’s very nature, and Rarity has shown she knows plenty about geology when it comes to gems.
u’d think that it would be the other way around. Weak unicorns would make less of a mess because they aren’t strong enough to throw things far off course, giving more time for adjustement.
Just strong enough to effect something, weak enough to be more susceptible to mistakes. The weakest probably wouldn’t even make the cut.
It was, at the very least, routine. Currently, the unicorns have two very experienced teachers, and ponies have more knowledge about both astrophysics and magic, which would give them better resources to develop or modify the spell.
Again fair point, but they need to know it inside and out to guarantee no mistakes, again there’s too much to lose if they aren’t careful.
The Royal Sisters stepped up after the reign of Discord. Whether any experienced unicorns were still around is unknown. The more important question is why the Royal Sisters never returned the task to the ponies that they took it from. No explanation has yet been given.
Again, fair enough.
@Sjogre
A single pony needs to be strong, sure. But groups of ponies? Why?
If one cog in a machine fails, the entire thing breaks, you can’t risk that.
They already have the keys to the armory. Unicorns already have the most abusable powers of the pony races.
No, the are safely tucked away. Magic isn’t inherently learned, it has to be taught, if everypony had that kind of strength why didn’t Trixie just levitate that Ursa Minor away? Why didn’t Twilight just blow that Hydra with her magic laser? Magic must be learned and even then you must to have the proper ability to.
Control of the day/night cycle wouldn’t even be the best weapon in their arsenal
It’s still a pretty big weapon to have, food, heat, energy. All yours to give or take away depending on who uses it. And there are worse spells that could be abused (time travel to name one), but they aren’t exactly easily obtained either…or at least no one thinks to use them, as in the comics Sunset Shimmer managed to take a peek a at least a few of them without being bothered by security of any kind.
@SeraphimDawn
This ride never ends.
Don’t want to make her upset she can’t fulfill her destiny, do we?
Really? She doesn’t seem to care that she is keeping all of the unicorns from fulfilling their destiny.
Besides, nothing stopping her from joining in, as another unicorn.
Well, first off, the three thousand tyrants will be trampling each other in the rush to get to you.
Second off, they’ll be your tyrants.
Third off, this isn’t about making the unicorns the ruling caste, this is about getting them to stop slacking off and start pulling their weight!
For too long has Celestia coddled the hatracks! Too long have they sat in Canterlot and taken the sweat from our brows and given nothing in return!
While the earth ponies have been feeding us and the pegasus ponies have been granting us water, the unicorn ponies have sat and grown fat! The earth ponies are yoked to the Earth and the pegasus ponies to the Clouds, so why are the unicorns free from the yoke of the SUN!?
Maybe no one wants to step in what has been, for the longest time, Her Majesty’s Court.
Don’t want to make her upset she can’t fulfill her destiny, do we?
Source? The only time I’ve ever seen the subject of unicorns moving the sun/moon I recall is Hearth’s Warming Eve, and that only said that the unicorn race in general was responsible.
That’s the place, yes, and that’s more important than you might realize. Most unicorns can only use their magic trick plus some simple spells. If unicorns were able to keep it up for generations, then it fits more into area of spells than anyone can learn than the unique magic trick area.
The bigger question is how many of the unicorns it took to manage the day and night cycle.
1. Again, source? I don’t recall any information or any means of inferring with reasonable confidence how Discord fits into the pony timeline, other than “before the current show, and after Celestia, Luna, ponies and the Elements of Harmony”.
Discord reigned over Equestria after it was formed but before Celestia and Luna. The unicorns managed the sun and moon even before Equestria was formed.
2. Discord also doesn’t appear to use conventional unicorn magic.
Does that make a difference? He’s controlled the sun and the moon, and that’s what is being discussed.
Aside from that, we saw Nightmare Moon take over from Celestia without causing problems, so unicorn-on-unicorn doesn’t seem to be an issue, either.
Assuming that it requires much focus at all.
I’d assume that the spell seemingly needing only a few seconds would be more of an issue.
The point is that there simply isn’t anywhere near enough information provided on the subjects in question to infer just about anything.
We know that the unicorns could do it in the past, without causing catastrophes or undo strain to themselves.
We don’t know why Celestia and Luna never let them start doing it again, and that decision seems odd, given how permissive she is otherwise.
This
Actually, we know that it is a spell that any unicorn can learn, rather than relying on an individual talent. More on the lines of levitation than Rarity’s gem spell.
Source? The only time I’ve ever seen the subject of unicorns moving the sun/moon I recall is Hearth’s Warming Eve, and that only said that the unicorn race in general was responsible.
The first is almost certainly false, given that Discord took the day/night cycle first from the old unicorns and then from Celestia.
*Even if no one else can grab it while you control it, sounds like a job for some strike breakers. If they’re concentrating on holding the sun or moon, they can’t focus completely on defending themselves. *
Assuming that it requires much focus at all.
The point is that there simply isn’t anywhere near enough information provided on the subjects in question to infer just about anything.
They still need to be powerful, extremely so. To be fair we don’t know how powerful exactly but pretty darn I would say.
A single pony needs to be strong, sure. But groups of ponies? Why?
One or two steer, the rest push. Even the ones steering don’t need to be all that strong, as long as the rest follow their directions, and you can replace strength with more people steering.
Psychos will always exist, but you don’t give them the keys to an armory. Power can be good or bad depending on how you use it, you need to be damn sure about who you teach it to, you don’t wanna turn treats into even BIGGER threats
They already have the keys to the armory. Unicorns already have the most abusable powers of the pony races.
Control of the day/night cycle wouldn’t even be the best weapon in their arsenal.
Could be worse. Could be another argument about how old the Manes are.
No, but Rarity needs to know at least a little bit about geology (which she does) to find them.
… She made the spell out of thin air when she was a little filly. Literally. She was looking for something special for her designs, and then her horn started taking her on a wild ride.
We don’t know how many unicorns are needed. And there can’t be any weak unicorns, if something, anything goes wrong it could be very bad.
You’d think that it would be the other way around. Weak unicorns would make less of a mess because they aren’t strong enough to throw things far off course, giving more time for adjustement.
Again, collaborative effort. Lots of unicorns in place of only a few.
We don’t know how well they did it in the past,for all we know, it could’ve been a struggle only managing by the skin of their teeth. If they were doing so well on their own, why even embrace the royal sisters?
It was, at the very least, routine. Currently, the unicorns have two very experienced teachers, and ponies have more knowledge about both astrophysics and magic, which would give them better resources to develop or modify the spell.
The Royal Sisters stepped up after the reign of Discord. Whether any experienced unicorns were still around is unknown.
The more important question is why the Royal Sisters never returned the task to the ponies that they took it from. No explanation has yet been given.
They’re casting a spell. Pony magic doesn’t rely on the caster knowing all the details. Rarity’s gem detecting spell, for example, doesn’t require her to understand the atomic structure of every gem in existence.
No, but Rarity needs to know at least a little bit about geology (which she does) to find them.
No, they work as a group. There is no minimum for magical strength needed to help turn day and night. If they need more magical muscle, then they just recruit more unicorns. If the strong unicorns are busy, than they’ll just use a lot of weak unicorns
We don’t know how many unicorns are needed. And there can’t be any weak unicorns, if something, anything goes wrong it could be very bad.
Given that the unicorns were originally able to learn the trick by doing it, I find that unlikely to the point of absurdity
We don’t know how well they did it in the past,for all we know, it could’ve been a struggle only managing by the skin of their teeth. If they were doing so well on their own, why even embrace the royal sisters?
you misunderstand: I don’t find any reason to believe that the unicorns use brute force to move the sun and moon. The energy needed to more that much mass through levitation, even if you assume that they are only moving the earth rather the sun and moon, is vastly beyond anything anyone uses in the series.
Science has already taken a vacation here (look at the picture we’re posting on), basically the sun and the moon are just really REALLY big balls of energy in the sky that life on earth needs to survive.
We know that this spell doesn’t depend on individual power. It can use a group, rather than a single pony, so none of them have to particularly powerful.
They still need to be powerful, extremely so. To be fair we don’t know how powerful exactly but pretty darn I would say.
Why do you think that dangerous unicorns are only going to exist if Celestia teaches them to raise the sun? They would be around and be powerful either way, and control of the sun is not needed to be a danger. Just knowing the spell that turns day and night isn’t going to make them any stronger
Psychos will always exist, but you don’t give them the keys to an armory. Power can be good or bad depending on how you use it, you need to be damn sure about who you teach it to, you don’t wanna turn treats into even BIGGER threats
They are doing astrophysics. Not equations but the actual damn thing, one slip up and it could be disastrous for all parties involved. Just because Celestia makes it look easy doesn’t mean it is.
They’re casting a spell. Pony magic doesn’t rely on the caster knowing all the details. Rarity’s gem detecting spell, for example, doesn’t require her to understand the atomic structure of every gem in existence.
See above. You’re assuming that many unicorns have that kind of strength.
No, they work as a group. There is no minimum for magical strength needed to help turn day and night. If they need more magical muscle, then they just recruit more unicorns. If the strong unicorns are busy, than they’ll just use a lot of weak unicorns.
No, but they have to know what the hell they’re doing.
Then they’ll learn when they learn the spell.
Again they have to be the best Equestria has to offer in every imaginable way. There is no room for error here.
Given that the unicorns were originally able to learn the trick by doing it, I find that unlikely to the point of absurdity.
Either the turning day and night is ingrained to the point that every unicorn has the ability, like pegasus weather control, or it’s forgiving enough that a bunch of complete neophytes could manage to learn it through trial-and-error without destroying the world.
Look it up if you don’t believe me,those are only estimates though given nobody has actually weighed either the sun or the moon. And we only know about pre-history from a play, we don’t know the specifics of how it was done.
You misunderstand: I don’t find any reason to believe that the unicorns use brute force to move the sun and moon. The energy needed to more that much mass through levitation, even if you assume that they are only moving the earth rather the sun and moon, is vastly beyond anything anyone uses in the series.
Given that magic already circumvents mundane physics, there would be a simpler explanation already at limb.
Again they would have to be Sombra level at least to even attempt to raise either the sun or moon based on raw magical power.
We know that this spell doesn’t depend on individual power. It can use a group, rather than a single pony, so none of them have to particularly powerful.
Why do you think that dangerous unicorns are only going to exist if Celestia teaches them to raise the sun? They would be around and be powerful either way, and control of the sun is not needed to be a danger. Just knowing the spell that turns day and night isn’t going to make them any stronger.