@Macaroni C-Pony
Ah, thanks

@Background Pony #119E
The Elements of Harmony is a form of power anyone can use provided they have enough faith and can make a connection.

@Macaroni C-Pony
TL DR

@Macaroni C-Pony  
“I’ve also always speculated that the virtue of “magic” was more of a virtue “faith” rather than… just raw magic, which fits into Twilight’s character development like a Tetris block.”
 
One, that’s kind of a leap that’s not much hinted at. I’m not sure if there’s enough in the show that justifies that explanation.
 
Two, how? Most of her faith is external, not internal. She has no self agency in the show at all, she is what Celestia wants her to be and that’s it.
 
Its frighteningly fitting that the element of magic when used improperly always causes powerful magic with no morals or direction…cause that’s Twilight in a nutshell.
 
“As someone who’s gone from constantly doubting herself”
 
Lack of confidence has never been her issue. Its mostly been her lack of social understanding.
 
Fear of failing Celestia I don’t think should count. The show never focused enough on Twilight’s personal wants and needs besides pleasing Celestia.
 
“With Sci-Twi, she didn’t have faith with what was already stolen magic from the humane 6. She was curious, but now allshe felt was fear, brought on by people who only cared about winning, and that fear enveloped her to where she thought she understood magic now, but only saw it’s raw potential, treating it more like a tool to win rather than _a reason to win”
 
That’s a very weak excuse for Sci-Twi to instantly turn pure evil, especially since the struggles of good and evil weren’t really the focus of her character struggles in movie 3. Hence, absolute power corrupting absolutely is more in line with how an element with no moral would turn her weak heart evil.
 
Sci Twi’s struggle between good and evil WAS a focus in Movie 4, but only because it was thrust upon her, similar to Luna, she felt her heart wasn’t strong enough to contain the darkness that her soul was burdened with. (Although with Luna’s case, it was her OWN High Alicorn power and her repressed emotins over the years that peaked and consumed her soul)
 
Sunset understood good AND evil in ways the Mane 6 could not, in ways Celestia and Luna could not, so when she reformed after being painfully turned into a demon, she took the hardest but best path to redemption ….she absorbed and understood all the hate the school had for her, she leaned on the Humane 6 and their slowly but kind understanding hearts, and reflected on herself, what wrong turns she took, and how she wanted to be….she wanted to be better then her mentor because she was taught she could her successor. While Celestia wanted a literal successor, things took a more unique turn for Sunset. In her early days, her thoughts were filled with surpassing Celestia in terms of power. As she reformed, she eventually became a far more understanding person then Celestia ever was. Many times she was the ‘sempai’/elder student for both versions of Twilight, and knew when they were pushing themselves too hard in a bad place.
 
Like both of us said, she followed Stygian’s role to its completion despite how hard the road was, completing the elements to the final form with the 7th and most elusive one, empathy, which is something Equestria never gained because Starswirled failed Stygian, thus that element and teaching that could of unified the sisters eluded them, causing them to have a falling out, and many other chain of events occurred.
 
So when Sunset fully reformed down to her very core, her descension into demonhood became an ascension into something more angelic in form then a normal alicorn.
 
“She HAS shown the virtues to represent the other elements, AND it was through the power of the others that made her a Princess in the first place.”
 
Problem with that is that’s only been shown in a literal, ritualistic sense, not in a moral sense. Most of the other elements have better grasps on all the major elements compared to Twilight, cause Twilight too often has her heart closed off to anyone but Celestia, while the rest of the Mane 5 instinctively empathize with each other and the morals they embrace.
 
Even the cinematic movie focused on how Twilight at her worst was never on the same wavelength as her friends regardless of how long they’ve known each other. Celestia’s mission always made her focus away from the lessons she learned along the way, and only when she focused completely on helping her friends without just thinking of pleasing Celestia wishes, did she rely on the teamwork on the others an accomplish something. Twilight doesn’t have any major revelations at the end of the cinematic movie, she just goes back to try working together with her friends again instead of just disregarding their way of doing things. It would of been a thematic thing if Twilight made important decision for herself, to perhaps maybe stop being Celestia’s student in order to focus more on learning how to TRULY understand her friends….but that wasn’t going to happen.
 
….
 
Remember….Twilight’s end goal was unfortunately set in stone from the end of S3. There was no mystery for her to figure out, no self exploration, Celestia simply wanted to her to be her successor and replica, and the series ends with Twilight becoming a carbon copy of Celestia. Nothing more.

bullshut it ||||is

 
HE WILL LIGHT OUR DARKEST HOUR AND HE WILL BECOME THE NEXT LEADERSHIP AFTER THE MAGIC OF CYBERTRON AND EQUESTRIA GIRLS IS NEXT!

Everyone is too busy discussing the MLP side of things, but nobody is mentioning the Transformers.
 
They dealt with mind control before, and they are an X factor that Sombra can’t plan for, because he’s not used to fighting them.

@CronoM  
No, no I’m actually agree with your point about Sunset and Stygian.
 
By as I said my biggest gripe with this isn’t the fact that Elements have been defeated. My Problem is how poorly it’s done, in the context, compared to the the other situations (A Canterlot Wedding, Princess Twilight, Twilight’s Kingdom)
 
The “restrictions” to the elements have always been apart of the current arc they were in. And at the beginning and end of season 9, the 6 realize they don’t NEED the elements because they ARE the elements, and that power was inside them all along, they just needed to grow and learn to acknowledge that.
 
I’ve also always speculated that the virtue of “magic” was more of a virtue “faith” rather than… just raw magic, which fits into Twilight’s character development like a Tetris block. As someone who’s gone from constantly doubting herself to accepting her duties and understand the heart of why we have problems (just like Lauren Faust intended, to surpass Celestia)
 
This fits into my idea that Elements can in fact by used by anyone representing these virtues, as long as they have what it takes to “believe” in them
 
Going by what you said, Sunset considered herself a failure, then grew jealous, which turned into rage. She genuinely believed she WAS in the right, but for the wrong reasons. She wasn’t fighting for a righteous reason, she was fighting for revenge, using righteous magic, which is what turned her into a “She-demon”
 
With Sci-Twi, she didn’t have faith with what was already stolen magic from the humane 6. She was curious, but now allshe felt was fear, brought on by people who only cared about winning, and that fear enveloped her to where she thought she understood magic now, but only saw it’s raw potential, treating it more like a tool to win rather than _a reason to win{
 
This when Sunset embraced those virtues, seeing an opportunity to finally redeem herself, and use the Elements herself. Empathy is to feel others, and with Sunset having a chance to represent the 5 others virtue throughout the movie, all she needed to do was believe.
 
This is why I feel Twilight is more directly closer to the Harmony and has the most potential to use them ALONE if ever needed, as Celestia and Sunset did. She HAS shown the virtues to represent the other elements, AND it was through the power of the others that made her a Princess in the first place. Her “magic” didn’t just untie the elements. The Elements changed HER magic, altered it, morphing it AND her more and more into a pure embodiment of Harmony, as Discord specially told her during his fakeout. She is now that “belief” which unites “Harmony”
 
Actually that makes sense why Sombra was able to mindfuck her. She was in “disbelief” the Elements didn’t work, and Sombra used this to “find a way through”, however I remain skeptical until and if something along this line is explained.

@Macaroni C-Pony  
Btw, I’m aware I’m talking about mostly hypotheticals regarding Stygian and Sunset, but thats the vibe that show seemed to be leaning towards.
 
The Mane 6 inherited a lot of the sisters and pillars old messes, so one has to consider why those messes existed in the first place if the elements were so perfect, and when Stygian was introduced when the elements were first being discovered, it sends the overall message “this is where they messed up, so maybe the elements were never fully mastered”

@Macaroni C-Pony  
Indeed. Completely let loose, she’s lethal/easy knock out to basically anyone, although obviously not a being like Discord who’s whole body works on cartoon chaos logic.

@Macaroni C-Pony  
I’m not even completely sure if the elements of harmony EVER achieved their fullest potential in Equestia.
 
Regardless of whether one considers EG canon or whether Empathy is an element or not, it was made almost abundantly clear that Stygian was originally meant to be a pillar as well, but the other pillars failed to accept and trust Stygian completely, as the 7th chosen always seems to have moral greys to represent balance and understanding, that run counter to lawful good obsessers like Starswirled (or even Twilight when she prioritizes Celestia’s wishes over everything else)….and Stygian fell without ever becoming a pillar.
 
And the elements have always seemed out of balance. One of the most reoccurring themes is whenever someone tries to gain control of the element of magic without being the chosen one of that element or not awakening as one yet, it instantly corrupts them beyond measure. Even Luna was a co-bearer to all 6 elements. Magic, unlike the other 5, isn’t a virtue, so I’ve always wondered if there is a counter element to that.
 
So if you think about how many times the Element of Magic brought evil and chaos to those that dared touch it just because they weren’t ready for it…
 
..can we honestly say that the elements themselves truly has infinite wisdom? Honestly, I’d expect it to be subject to some loopholes and limitations.
 
Besides, even if one does consider that full power itself flawless, using mind control or some other method to separate the 6 from joining their hearts and unleashing its power, would be the most sensible tactic. Even ultimate power has to have some restrictions, its not as if every victory is handed to them.
 
Although if we’re talking about weaknesses covered, empathy power showed potential to undo mind control and communicate via hearts over vast distances.

@CronoM  
Exactly, that’s why I said Rainbow was the second strongest.

@Vaidelot  
Exactly!!
 
One does have to wonder why this RD policy isn’t used more often.
 
I mean you have someone who, in the theatrical release movie, thwarted the Storm King’s quick and decisive victory LITERALLY in the blink of the eye by rescuing Twilight from the sealing crystal projectile faster then the eye could see, can smash into houses with the force of a bomb, and can perform a sonic rainboom.
 
Sure friendship is magic but even Human RD saved Sunset by smashing a giant carnivorous plant with super speed and super strength before it tried to eat her. Sometimes one method of friendship is high impact physical violence.
 
@Vaidelot  
Remember that time in the comics Evil Celestia and Evil Luna appeared before them? Evil Celestia wanted to fling Twilight into the next mountain, but Rainbow Dash and Rarity beforehand initiated plan
 
“Let’s kill them before they kill us.”
 
Remember?
 
>>613555
 
Rarity watched Rainbow Dash sail into a very wide arc as Evil Celestia was busy monologuing, and at the last moment, Rarity tried to distract Luna while RD smashed into Celestia’s neck to snap her neck and kill her, and while it failed, at the very least it stopped Celestia’s attack on Twilight, and apparently a follow up blow to the same spot was going to kill Evil Celestia, but Good Sombra stopped RD with a shield cause good Celestia’s life force was tied too tight to the evil one.
 
Between Super speed, flight, weather control and high impact super strength, why DON’T they just let RD go nuts on the less reformable villains? I know its a moral lesson story show, but she’s clearly willing to use unstoppable levels of speed to thwart a villain’s plan like in the movie, and she clearly has no qualms about killing an opponent who is about to kill them as shown in the comics, so why the hell not?
 
Non-magic users are way too ignored the world of mlp. Yeah some villains have ghost like or whacky forms like Discord, but for most other types….
 
… I find magic users have a tough time casting black magic when they’ve already been knocked unconscious before they can cast. Even area-of-effect stop movement spells only last for a very short period of time.

@Incursor  
Discord is a 4th dimensional reality warping God of chaos who, while not invincible himself, is still capable of time manipulation, distortion, mind control, Trans dimensional teleportation, and potentially cosmic awareness as well as possible omnipresence who’d make Sombra his bitch any day of the week and HAS
 
The fact that HE needs to think ahead with elaborate plans spanning across thousands of years should speak for how powerful the Elements should be.
 
For a guy who could do this on a whim, he sure seemed pretty obedient in Keep “Calm and Flutter on”
 
And no. Needing time to set up doesn’t seem to be a requirement for the Elements. That just seems the be plot driven. It’s been implied many times that as long as they are together and there is a clear and present danger, the elements can and should be utilized and yet it simply not.
 
I’m not saying it should be infallible, I’m not saying it should be a deus ex machina. I AM saying the rules and limitations shouldn’t be so vague or obvious so that anybody could come along and make it look like a push over.
 
It’s a giant plot hole akin to the exhaust port in the Death Star (which was later thankfully retconned to be intentional design by a rebel contractor)
 
So yes, let’s wait and see for the writing to make up for this plot induced stupidity
 
And I’ve BEEN saying I HOPE we get more context to this, and that my argument is being taken by what we know so far.
 
I literally stated Sombra’s “explanation” was bullshit, and IF taken as fact, would be poor writing

@Macaroni C-Pony  
Just because the Tree is sapient doesn’t mean it can chose or control the rules or limitations of it’s powers. And Discord did take advantage of the Elements “loopholes or exploits” to nullity them long enough to show they are not infallible. And “Shadow Play” revealed the Tree was planted while Celestia was studying under Star Swirl so it is younger than Celestia (more evidence of it being just very powerful as opposed to omnipotent).
 
The seen requirements to use the Elements are all 6 of them are used together at once, time to set it up, and/or a friendship epiphany. Sombra took them out before those could be meet, the Elements being at their full potential doesn’t make those exploitable flaws go away. The president it sets is that it is not a deus ex machina that prevents any problems but still they have challenges to inevitably overcome.
 
Maybe they’ll use the Elements to fight off Sombra’s control when push comes to shove. How about waiting to see how if it plays out in a way that addresses the complaints before judging?

@Incursor  
However, that very theme is starting to be written as if a liability. What if someone attacks Twilight while she’s on the toilet and her friends are miles away or doing their own thing? Or what if someone decides to take out the mane 6 one by one?
 
Remember, the tree of Harmony was sentient, just as old if not older than Celestia. I’m not going to believe in all it’s infinite wisdom that it didn’t account for the loopholes or exploits villains would attempt to take advantage of. Before it made sense because they weren’t as knowledgeable or didn’t understand it. But now, at it’s FULLEST potential, we’re supposed to believe this weakness was here this whole time?
 
And what precedent does this set for future threats, especially now that Twilight’s sole ruler and will potentially outlive her friends.
 
 
Look at the context implied here. Sombra could LITTERALY order Twilight to just kill herself or her friends, nullifying the elements forever. Obviously plot won’t allow him to, but the possibility that he could do is a glaring weakness that really SHOULDN’T exist. Especially considering the “requirements” to use Elements are pretty much all met here.

@Macaroni C-Pony  
It’s inside her but she still needs her friends, pony or human versions, to trigger that power, or at least give her the right state of mind to use it.
 
“Overcoming fear and doubt in the name of friendship is what makes her powerful.” That power is from her willingness to open up to/rely on friends which the villains fail by rejecting, but she still needs her actual friends to bring out that level of power. Without that she’s merely a powerful and smart magic user but below the eldritch level of Sombra.
 
She’s not so powerful she can overcome major problems like Sombra on her own strength and will, to do so would contradict the central theme of the series.

@KSLDRDPL  
Only little mistakes. Villains don’t mistakes learn from mistakes that much, except for Chancellor Neighsay, Starlight Glimmer, Stygian, Gilda, Trixie, Sunset Shimmer, Tempest Shadow, and several more.

Its great to see sombra again. And look at it, he even learned from his mistakes! :P

I think it’s fine for Twilight to lose to Sombra (even when she got her act together and started to push him back, she was the one starting to strain in the beam struggle, not him, before she got help, whereas he seemed to just be angry), but I think it’s a better idea for her loss to be dragged out over more panels rather than just “instantly mind controlled,” considering this is presumably after S9’s premiere (or some event like that in a similar timeline, knowing the opening joke, and Chrysalis having some subjects).
 
It would’ve probably felt better if the Mane Six were more spread out, too.
 
I would personally sacrifice or cut down on the Scootaloo’s Aunts part to flesh this out a bit, if I could.

@Incursor  
Also, to add, Twilight is the the magical piece that unties the elements. This power is INSIDER her, she IS the heart of Harmony, especially NOW. And similar to Discord, she is capable of detecting magical imbalances. We’ve seen the Elements of Harmony tapped into despite the mane 6 not even being together of magic even being involved (Nightmarity, EG1 and 2, and even her ascension to alicornhood
 
This is what made her special, and this is where her true power comes from, because you’re half right. It’s not really about how strong or smart she is. Overcoming fear and doubt in the name of friendship is what makes her powerful.

@Incursor  
I disagree. As we see Rainbow, Rarity, and Applejack clearly dodge what appears to be a direct blast. And I don’t think the “prep time” argument applies here, as Twilight and friends are meant to be at their peak here. The true power of their friendship as been realized, and they are at their full potential. As I stated Twilight has now overcome her doubt and anxiety, with the mane 6 fully prepared for a fight, if ANYTIME would be the absolute perfect moment to use the Elements of Harmony once again, it would’ve been then and now.
 
I don’t think it should be that easy to bypass this by just mind controlling half of them. And I think it’s dumber that Sombra’s logic behind this is more or less what the mane 6 were doing right then and there. That’s what make his words hypocritcal
 
Given that, their newfound knowledge of the Decepticons, and the fact that needed the help of the Autobots, AND their other friends to fight them off the first time, I doubt they would wouldn’t jump into their world without thinking ahead. It’s completely out of character for them to blindly take risks (Okay Maybe not for Rainbow Dash, and maaaybe Pinkie) While yes, Sombra may have caught them off guard, it doesn’t change the fact that they were together and the “combined magic” that defeated him seemed to be raring and willing to be used once more… and simply turned off for the sake of plot. Honestly, the vague mehtods shown to defeat/bypass the Elements are now just as confusing as the vague requirement USING the Elements
 
But it’s the lack of context to his mind control that ruins the emersion. If Sombra’s magic is as OP as it seems, why doesn’t he just it more often? More so, how was he conscious while “dead” despite not being the case with Discord, the first time? How is it that strong, and what’s stopping the Elements form protecting them from it again because the situation really isn’t much worse than last time.
 
And if the Princesses KNOW how threating his Mind Control can work, why haven’t they came up with a spell to counter it?
 
Discord felt threatened by a reformation spell he was was compelled to destroy, so surely it can’t be that hard, given he’s superior to Sombra. And why is it that Twilight, of all ponies didn’t anticipate him to do something like this?  
As the new ruler of Equestria, has it really never dawned that someone could just mind-fuck her now that she’s back in Canterlot away from her friends.
 
And does the the fact she’d now potentially out live them mean the Elements will eventually be useless, even though Celestia and Luna both used them prior on Discord, and Celestia by herself on Luna, or Sunset in Eg3?

@Macaroni C-Pony  
@Macaroni C-Pony
 

@Macaroni C-Pony  
Given that the continuity in its prequel is all over the place, and still is now, you can pretend this isn’t the experienced Prime Mane 6.

I don’t see myself as exaggerating, but maybe I am expecting more the mane 6 based on what I’ve made conclusions from
 
But overall I agree with most of your points, however I do have some counter-arguments:
 
While yes, Twilight is NOT a fighter. However she IS a learner, and it’s the fact that’s she’s struggled for so long with said mental and psychological breakdowns would be factor in her improvement, rather than evidence to the contrary. As I’ve stated Twilight in season 9 seems to have finally overcome these issues to become more like Celestia.
 
I’m not insinuating she should be completely immune to or infallible. You’re correct that to point that out. But she’s far from a push-over to somepony she’s faced before with and without her friends, and I feel like there should’ve been more conflict to the idea of this, or at least a better explanation rather than the poor excuse of a loop-hole Sombra provides.
 
It’s not really about strength or expertise, (to which I disagree I think Twilight is very expertise in the field of magic, given that she can swap cutie marks and copy the abilities one’s cutie mark can provide)
 
Rather it’s more about experience, as well as focus. I don’t see Twilight and friends prepared and ready to fight DECEPTICONS, and getting immediately yeeted by an old enemy.
 
Lastly I think the death argument is getting a bit too meta, but overall I feel the “most powerful magic of all” should’ve done more “Incapacitate” him than just “dispelling” him until a “spark of magic” brought him back, given his record
 
I think my biggest gripe is how vague and hypocritical Sombra’s “explanation” regarding the Elements themselves.  
Comparing what we’ve SEEN Vs. what he just stated… it’s just not believable at this point their careers.