@Darth Sonic  
Just one other thing: I’m not trying to convince you. Good on you for not having the whole thing ruined to you like I did. I’m just explaining why I feel the way I do.

@Darth Sonic  
I seem to have trouble making people understand that the fact that I think that Celestia looks like something (a useless moron) is my way of saying that the writers have fucked up with this character. Going from the starting point that we both agree that the writers fucked up bad, I would assume that you agree with me that Celestia isn’t my alleged fat cat. So, do you agree that the intention behind the character is that Celestia is a decent ruler and actually knows what she’s doing as a ruler? Without taking into consideration her ability to fight evil and protect Equestria in the present.
 
Now, I didn’t mean that Celestia is trying to manipulate history. I said that this is what it looks like, but I also doubt that is the intention, specially because I doubt she’d look like she does if that was the intention. It seems that because of the way the cartoon is made, Celestia never actually “wins”. And that is my problem with the past. Celestia’s past is nothing more than a setup for the present. Sombra took the whole Crystal empire with him. That is not a victory, he actually stalled the fight. I like to think that in the present Celestia and Luna could just go back there and roflstomp Sombra with a vengeance. But that is not what happened. And I understand why, but in the end, what happened is that someone else had to fix a problem they couldn’t. Not to mention that later, in the comics, Sombra COMES BACK AGAIN and just turns the two into stone like it’s nothing.
 
Then there is Discord, and the problem, is once again that their past with him was a setup for the present instead of a story about how the sisters defeated Discord. The way Celestia and Luna defeated Discord with the Elements, IS different from when Twilight and friends defeated both him and NMM. The Mane Six earn it through the episodes, meaning that their victory is built on their actions. Celestia and Luna pick up the Elements and take it to Discord, who has time to not only make fun of Celestia but also drop the seeds that are the problem in the present. The way it’s shown, there is nothing that says that the two of them were necessary and it couldn’t have been two completely strangers that picked up the elements and used them on Discord. Yes, the pilot says that you need friendship to get them to work, but the Reflections arc shows Sombra just grabbing the elements from Celestia and saving her ass like they’re just a big club to beat others over the head. The Elements just don’t make any sense anymore.
 
When dealing with NMM, Celestia takes a hit, doesn’t say a word and them grabs the Elements. It’s over in two minutes. Not only Nightmare Moon doesn’t have time to actually do anything “evil”, but Celestia’s actions seem completely robotic and devoid of weight (like she’s following a script, something that is obvious, but should never be apparent). These are two events that deserved whole movies about them that got condensed in lazy flashbacks. Really sucked out the epic for me and Celestia took the hit, because the cartoon doesn’t shy away from showing these villains and their abilities.
 
Then there is Chrysalis, another villain that Celestia has defeated in the past. Well, according the comics, but we’ll never see how, and in the end it was just a stupid and nonsensical explanation to why the changelings have holes. And yet Celestia seems to have no recollection of Chrysalis in the present, completely falls for Chrysalis’ trap and if it wasn’t for Cadance and Shining Armor, she’d probably be dead now.
 
The only “badass” thing I can think of Celestia in the past is the episode with the dragon in the Journal of the Two Sisters. But that is not only condensed in Luna’s recollection of it, but it’s also almost the same thing as Dragonshy. I’d be impressed with Celestia if I hadn’t actually seem Fluttershy do the same. Hardly seems impressive in comparison to Cadance’s love magic, the Mane Six’s friendship canon or Luna’s ability to enter dreams or even the power she displays as Nightmare Moon.
 
So, in the end, if Celestia ever went up against Chrysalis again in the future, I bet my ass that Celestia would get her ass kicked again, specially if she’s on her own. Yes, because the writers seem to hate Celestia, but the image we’ll get in the end is Celestia in the floor and Chrysalis laughing. I’m sure that if Luna was there, they might win, but I don’t care about Luna. I already know that SHE can hold her own in a fight. I know that Luna has her own tasks to fulfill and that she has the capacity to learn from her mistakes and grow from them.
 
So yeah. In fanfiction, I have no problem seeing people turn Celestia into a monster of fire and kicking Chrysalis in her behind. But that is never going to happen with the actual Celestia and just seems like wish fulfilment. Yes, I do think that the intention behind Celestia is that she is wise, powerful, intelligent, and a bunch of good adjectives, but when it’s time for the build up to be paid off, Celestia always disappoints and someone else is needed to get the job done. And when the stories about her past aren’t even hers, I can’t even see her as the hero of the past. She never earned it.

@moonlightaveger  
… The living fuck? Son, you really need to check your biases, because they are warping your perception of reality.
 
Every villian from a thousand years ago was defeated by the Sisters or just Celestia, with the exception of the Sirens and Windigoes, and only two were confirmed to be done in by the EoH (which shouldn’t matter, because if you think it does, you also believe a number of the Mane 6’s accomplishments should be invalidated)! Except what is in the parentheses, I have stated nothing but facts here.
 
You could say that because all this information in presented in legends and fairy tales, that it could be a case of unreliable narrator. Cool theory, make a nice fanfic about a corrupt Fat Cat Celestia trying to legitimize her rule via manipulating the history books. Just as fanon as the idea that Celestia just let herself go.
 
You don’t seem to get that there is no connection between past and present Celestia at all. That is the problem. We are dealing with two completely distinct characters at the moment, and any attempt to connect the two, by fanboy and hater alike, is pure fanon. The writers fucked up *bad.

@Darth Sonic  
Every time I have this conversation with anyone I feel like I’m watching a different cartoon and reading different stories. It pisses me off because I want to like this character like I did when I first saw it. The problem is that right now I can’t even see her as a hero of the past.
 
What exactly do you mean when you say that Celestia used to do everything?

@moonlightaveger  
I don’t know what to say. Her Glory days are canon. Her modern sorry self is also unfortunately canon. The writers have completely failed to reconcile the two, so we the fans imagine her as a fallen hero because we got to fill in the blanks somehow.
 
Nothing I said is up for debate. I’m stating facts.

@Darth Sonic  
I totally understand what you’re saying, and I’d agree if we were still in season 1 or 2. This isn’t me being a hater or something like that, of the sort of things I usually get called for my opinion on Celestia.
 
People come up with this reasoning that Celestia’s glory is in the past but I think that this is the fandom reasoning away the problem with Celestia: that she’s desperately missing an episode or some piece of “anything” that actually shows Celestia in a good light. Specially with the way Big Jim talked about her. The point is: Celestia is an awful character, the intention and projection she gets just doesn’t add up with her actual presentation.
 
Celestia ruled for 1000 years. And what did she do with it? I don’t know. Judging by the way she always deals with problems (because of the way the cartoon works) it could just be that she had someone else get things done and then got the credit for it. The other problem with Celestia is that it’s always about people talking about her and never Celestia actually DOING something.
 
The whole Chrysalis thing is the quintessential example. In the comic we see the characters talking about Celestia. And even when it’s going to actually show her doing something, it just shows a single panel that is reminiscent of Twilight’s book in the beginning of the show. The problem is that when we got to look at the actual event of Nightmare Moon against Celestia, it was a rushed mess that sucked all the supposed glory and drama out of the event. And then the same with Discord. Not even mentioning that Celestia, by herself is completely ineffectual (even in the past) because all her enemies come back and Twilight has to deal with them. Yes… Chrysalis flinched when she fought Celestia. I want to know why, because Celestia is a waste of animation.
 
Honestly, if I believed that the intention is that Celestia actually is this “fallen hero” you see her being, I’d just hate her instead of hating the writers that don’t do anything with her. And I think that it would be an absurd waste of the character. The same with Nightmare Star. I think this franchise’s worship of the edgy villains is unbelievably childish. “Cool” villains without the virtuous or “as good as can be” heroes that should go with them is one of the most annoying things in entertainment to me.
 
Finally, Is Nightmare Moon threatening? She could be if she didn’t look like a child that had a temper tantrum that was over in two minutes… Thanks to the pilot, she has some credibility with me. But if Celestia went Nightmare Star, I’d be wondering why didn’t she do anything like that when she should.

@moonlightaveger  
She used to do everything though, and I mean everything.
 
It’s canonical (if we take the comics into account, though it’s nigh canonical in the show thanks to Tirek’s backstory) that she used to be a major badass who got fat and lazy over the years.
 
Chyrsalis is where we see this confirmed. Centuries ago, Celestia ROFLstomped Bugbutt. Today, the oppisite happened. And you remember Chyrsalis’s shocked and bewildered expression (which was proceeded by a fearful flinch) when she won.
 
Something tells me Nightmare Star will be more the “DnD Adventurer Princess” from centuries ago rather than the cake guzzling jobber of today. Why do I think this? Because Hasbro wants threatening Villians.

@Darth Sonic  
It depends… Are Luna and Nightmare Moon different entities or are they both forms of the same to you? What about Celestia and Nightmare Star? Also, Nightmare Moon is a canon character (in the primary canon, the cartoon) and Nightmare Star doesn’t really exist.
 
The cartoon has led me to respect Luna, Cadance and Twilight if they decided to kick someone’s behind. Celestia is more like the fat useless politician that spent 1000 years doing something that nothing has convinced me that she does it better than anyone else. Then there is the fact that every time Equestria needs her to defend it from something, she folds like wet tissue and, finally, every time something needs to be done, I never see her actually DO something about it other than sending others to do it.
 
Typical political fat cat.

@moonlightaveger  
This is Nightmare Star. She’s still allowed to be badass.

Lovely.

I used to look at images like this one and think that someone finally managed to piss her off. Now I feel like someone should call Luna before she hurts herself.
 
Or that she’s going to wake up and Luna’s going to be sitting next to her bed, laughing her ass off.

Celestia vs Chrysalis. Round 2.

You pushed too far, Chryssy. You pushed too far.

Annnddd…Earth Shock.