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Dash hits it right on the head. She’s not wrong.
Again, you’re lying. It’s not that hard to go back and see that you said it.
Again, wrong Background Pony.
You’re obviously not interested in discussing Tirek because you keep trying to make the discussion about prison reform.
Even if Tirek never heard about other “Realms”, Cozy Glow surely knows something about “The World of Canterlot Highschool”.
But… Would they be safe even in another world? (Is there a place in the multiverse that Discord could not find them?)
There’s also the matter that with the reveal that Grogar was actually Discord all along, Tirek and Cozy probably felt like they were only released from Tartarus just to be “publicly executed” by Twilight Sparkle as part of a grand design by Princess Celestia using Discord as a scapegoat. The pair of them were essentially backed into a corner, and with how too often Celestia had resorted to the most drastic measure they felt that there was no other options available to them besides just fighting against Celestia for their own survival: if Discord could free them from Tartarus and pull Chrysalis out of hiding, there is little room for them to actually run away towards.
In many ways, Tirek and Cozy would have felt similar to how Spinel felt when Steven had only used her to turn off the Injector and had the Rejuvenator Scythe in his pockets.
Edited
A valid point.
After over a thousand years of being left to rot in Tartarus to the point Tirek had withered away to a decrepit state even smaller than an average pony it’s honestly impressive he only resorted to killing in the last season and even then it was only when it would be practical to do so.
Is it any surprise that the villains keep getting worse if the punishment is so severe? Tirek as well as Cozy would just keep getting more desperate to never end up like that again and there’s no nonviolent alternative they know of that doesn’t end with them being locked back away forever. It’s why I think it’s ridiculous to think they had their chance to turn good in frenemies. Aside from Chrysalis being there to stamp out any thoughts about it, there’s nothing for them if they were to magically reform on their own.
The issue with it being a moral event horizon is the actions leading up to it.
With no actual effort or real regulation to the treatment of prisoners it’s entirely reasonable he’d eventual decide to simply end the lives of those that pose the most threat to him.
To be frank, Celestia and Luna’s actions crossed that horizon as well with less justification, while Tirek has been given everything but a reason to care about the lives of what are effectively enemy combatants, not civilians.
I do not see why “This is MLP” & “…a prison case study” would be mutually exclusive [the particular way this fictional setting deals with problematic entities is interesting PRECISELY because it is not subjected to the same constrains of real life].
Tirek has NOT killed anypony yet (as far as we know).
S4E26: He did attempted to DEFEAT Princess Twilight Sparkle by force; then showing her that he may be able & willing to suddendly reduce the volume of the “spheres” containing her 5 pony friends, Spike & Discord [implicitly stating that he could indirectly cause extreme pain/injuries that “may” lead to their deaths].
. While he did destroyed the Golden Oak Library (efectively killing a beehive, the tree itself & potentially an owl), he was in BATTLE with Twilight [it was HER mistake to take refuge in a “populated” place were he would still be able to detect & attack her remotely].
-> From his point of view, Twilight was trying to hide between rocks close to him using her teleportation (perhaps trying to spot a “weak point” & “sneak attack” him from a closer position for a “critical hit”). He was unaware of Twilight´s “teleportation incontinence” problems.
S9E25: Unlike Cozy Glow (whos desire was to DESTROY the prisioners), he wanted to kept them as bargain to get Twilight later [since that plan worked for him previously].
By the time of the open fight at the outskirts of Canterlot Castle, Twilight kicked him so hard he lost some teeth (even then, he was still playing “fair” on his 1 vs 1 duel with her).
-> He knew that Cozy would kill them as soon she got an oportunity (also that Chrysalis would not stop her from doing so), so given that their 3 powerlevels were somewhat similar, it makes sense for him to “help” them powering a “death beam” to execute the pony group when they were defenseless [even if he would not do it all by himself alone].
Then: It is my headcanon that he had never taken the life of another sapient creature (or at least not in a premeditated way, for any other porpouse other than self_defense). It is unlikely that anypony (unicorns) would have died directly from the extraction of their magic [if anything, it may have just reduced their total lifespan to favor his].
-> Celestia & Luna “sealed” him on Tartarus [1000 years before] because they could not think of another way to stop his “menace” (danger to their way of life), other than to killing him (an act much WORSE than what he had ever actually done at that point in time).
I would concede that helping to shoot the Mane Six & Spike with a power enough to vaporize them (they would have died without the Deus ex Machina shield from ALL unicorns & Kirins) is enough reason to invalidate “Tartarus again” as an option [he crossed a moral event horizon just there].
No, that’s you.
You were telling that background pony that. Feel free to look back and see for yourself. Your words and nobody else’s.
Wrong Background Pony.
You said this.
So, you’re flat out lying.
And, no we were not told anything. Your just arguing that because one thing somehow happened, this other thing certainly happened, despite me very clearly explaining how we’re both told and shown that it didn’t.
If nobody noticed Cozy and Tirek were gone for entire seasons of the show, then nobody was trying to reform them or make things tolerable either. Rather than either argue that point or concede, you’re just dancing around it without actually acknowledging it. To what end, I don’t know.
Edited
I never said Cozy’s letters were part of Tirek’s reformation.
Argamis did. You should read the context.
You’re hinging your entire argument on “we were told so by the story, but the story did not show it, therefore it did not happen.” If thats the case, Tirek, Cozy Glow and Chrysalis aren’t imprisoned in stone, they’re actually living in paradise in a parallel universe Equestria where they’re dreams have come true. The story did not show it, but I’m headcanoning it, therefore its canon.
Tirek never killed anyone when he totally could have. He never killed Celestia and Luna. He never killed Discord. He never killed the pillars or any of the ponies he drained. He never even killed any of the main six when he had the chance in the season four finale.
He only ever shows any intent to kill Twilight during the season nine finale for the practical reason of she keeps getting in the way and stopping him (and he doesn’t care if the rest of the mane 6 want to go with her in the end), but it took two consecutive failures for him to even go that far.
In the season four finale and the alternate timeline, we see Tirek flexing his power by destroying some wild forests. Not some cities or villages or anything that has a reason to be populated. It’d be a baseless assumption that anyone at all was in them just roaming about, let alone enough people to qualify as mass murder.
Tirek’s not a merciless killer. It’s pretty baseless to say he is when there’s a ton of evidence to the contrary. If he was going to kill anyone for fun he’d kill Celestia, Discord, or at least Starswirl but he’s avoided doing so on several occasions. In canon, Tirek’s never killed anyone and has only ever attempted to kill Twilight.
Edited
Yes, it doesn’t. But to say that his goals were essentially the extermination or enslavement of all ponies is simply a headcannon. Nothing else. We don’t know what his goal was after taking all the magic in Equestria and we certainly never saw him kill or enslave anyone in the show despite having numerous opportunities to do so.
lol just flexing his power ok, we know what happened in the story its one thing to sympathize with a character and want better for them. Its another to downplay who they are. edit: heck in one of the panels even in this very fanfic that encourages draco in leather pants aj says it doesn’t change what he has done but she does have empathy/and or feels bad for him.
Edited
And did he ever act on it? How do you know it literally meant enslavement and not just him flexing on how much more powerful he’d be then every one of them combined?
“Soon every earth pony, unicorn and pegasus will bow before me and there is nothing u can do to stop it.”
Enslave? What are you talking about? He pretty much left them alone after draining them. Yea, he wasn’t very caring, but calling him a mass murderer or a slaver is simply wrong based on what we’ve seen from the show. By that logic, we can assume that Discord was a murderer because he didn’t care who his chaotic creations could hurt, which lets face it, many of them were dangerous.
“exceedingly merciful” yeah sure he didn’t kill them but once he gains all that power he is finna enslave all of them. Whether anyone was there or not, it shows tirek has no remorse on the concept of ending the lives of others and considering that huge beam he shot a twilight that destroyed her home he doesn’t care about any possibly of death or any one he can kill in his conquest for power
Edited
And how do you know anyone was there? I’d argue that he was exceedingly merciful considering that he never tried to kill anyone he drained. Otherwise, the Pillars would be dead by now along with most of the Main 6 and the princesses besides Twilight.
well tirek could have killed when he was shooting his beam everywhere in the alternate universes not caring about who can get killed by it and we see him trying to kill the mane 6 and spike in the series finale. So hes at least a attempted mass murder.
Whatever way you send Cozy’s letters since you think that counts as a reformation attempt. It’s your words not mine.
And mass murder? When was it ever implied Tirek has killed anybody? Let alone mass murder.
We do know: Tirek’s dad is dead. We know this because he’s brooding about never getting the chance to prove his father wrong instead of “One day my father will FINALLY recognize me for the great king I am!”
From there it’s not hard to connect the dots. Tirek’s lifespan is unnatural and whatever caused it happened with Sendak.
@Argamis
Seriously? This is MLP. Not a prison case study.
Tartarus has a literal door that can be opened and passed through with artifacts. You’re severely overthinking things.
You’re avoiding your own answer: Tirek committed mass murder and Celestia and Luna imprisoned in Tartarus to avoid giving the death sentence.
@SunlightDrifter
I find it disturbing that you think reformation is something you just “send down there”. Do you send “reformation” by FedEx or UPS?