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Description
Coco Pommel Cosplay by Lochlan O’Neil
Policy Update - Rules changes incoming for AI content - Read Here
>>For the record, I was never correcting my argument around your playing devils advocate. Just expanding it.
Never meant to imply that you were doing otherwise, and apologies if I gave that impression :) .
Just to be clear, though, I didn’t mean to play devil’s advocate if that’s how it came across; merely to explain what his argument was, as he seemed unable to properly clarify it himself.
For the record, I was never correcting my argument around your playing devils advocate. Just expanding it. His argument tried to throw things to an arbitrary abstract; a hive-mind known only as ‘the internet’ to which everything was out of anyone’s control rendering any action taken on an individual’s part ineffective, a precedent I, again, refuse to grant him in the first place since we are all individuals behind these screens, we decide for ourselves when we are pushed and challenged to think about it.
But yes, if we let the creeps go without calling them on it, the thought that people are good with creeps sets in and the more impressionable of us here become more accepting of going down that path. Silent majority strikes again.
And finally, to the discerning creeps that don’t want to be swayed, you know there’s plenty of stuff on derpibooru for you all to sink your teeth into, and you’ve always known to keep that sh*t in-house, and you should know that when you bring creep to places it’s not welcome, you’re probably gonna catch flak about it. No difference here.
Better… You’re still not quite engaging his argument, but you’re acknowledging it now, and providing a good case for why you should still speak up even if he were correct. And it’s well written.
Personally, I would have gone with an argument about how it discourages more borderline cases from following the examples of the creeps, reassures cosplayers that not all watchers are like the creeps, and/or encourages others to speak up in other situations where it may be more practical, but I think your approach here will still be able to break the loop you two are trapped in :) .
…Well, setting aside the fact that the conversation is likely over at this point. But I would still like to say that it was a good counterargument on your part!
(3CE8, on a different computer)
So, to him, until I can report the fear in a creeps eyes when I reach through the screen and physically grab them by the collar and tell them to stop being a jackass, I can’t actually prove that anything actually came of doing something, thus making an example out of them couldn’t be proven to him to be worth my time and thus wasn’t?
(I know, that was complicated.)
Well by that logic he could also refute me when I say the Earth is round just because I can’t show him due to it being heavily inconvenient for me to physically show him; I refuse to let him set the precedent to which the case is to be judged. Which I guess would be my over-arching point in all this. He and his pessimism doesn’t get to decide her place to speak up, especially with that “one girl vs internet” mentality bias, just because he thinks he knows the world around us better.
He could lean on the “the internet is full of jackasses so don’t bother” argument until the cows come home, and he could settle to live with the problem by calling such an idea “a practical approach,” but I’d just tell him that doing things the easy way doesn’t equate to a practical approach any more than if my new garbage disposal’s installation instructions had a “step 6: give up” when I didn’t feel like putting up with the hassle of putting it under my sink.
And even if the man in the example was Carl from Aqua Teen Hunger Force, people can stay silent if they wish, hey maybe their hearts are not in it for a physical confrontation, whatever. But to turn to the person who is speaking up and tell that person essentially to pipe down, to use one’s time and energy to depreciate that opinion which is morally justified, just because they think it’s a waste of time, is pessimistic, not practical. It’s a self-fulfilling pessimism at that.
>>by refuting his reasons for telling her her actions were useless.
But you aren’t. His next reply is going to be to tell you that those of us criticizing the creeps accomplished nothing of note, an argument that you haven’t addressed.
He’s not asserting that there is a meaningful distinction between offline and online communication; his argument is to say that your friend in the example is just going to laugh in your face before making another vulgar comment.
You are arguing ethics, while he is arguing practicality. The argument between you two will go nowhere until either you establish how such speaking out will accomplish the desired result of reducing inappropriate speech, or he just gives up.
The action was already taken by Helix in the form of speaking against the creeps, and as such, what should be done has been decided. I’m now I’m defending that action by refuting his reasons for telling her her actions were useless. Citing his false argument of the internet as a wholly separate public arena which cannot be engaged the same as that of it’s face-to-face counterpart.
He’s just going to return to his core argument of futility, you know.
He acknowledges what they’re doing to be wrong; he just doesn’t think it can be changed, and thus we should default to inaction.
While I disagree with the fundamental premise of his argument (although I do acknowledge there will always be a few people who will say anything, regardless of what others do), and agree with most everything you said in this comment, you’re not engaging the core of his argument - providing a mechanism by which your comments will reduce the frequency of inappropriate attention given to the cosplayer.
To phrase things differently - you’re arguing why we should take action, while he is arguing how we should (not) take action.
I’ll refer back to my comment on what sparked this whole thing; it’s socially unacceptable to say things of a girl in public and in a fashion where she can hear you (unless your in da clubs it seems) and what we have here is that scenario taking place, but over the internet. Now, instead of telling the guy he’s being a creep as would probably happen in real life, the response becomes “hey that’s just the nature of the beast” because we’re all behind screens. Given the circumstances of this case, why should we readily allow the internet behavior double standard to rationalize that behavior? All parties are present and reading these things, but you’ve got words for her instead of the offending party?
Put yourself in the situation as though it was face-to-face: your like the guy whom this random guy turned to and said “is it just me or do her breasts look bigger than last time?” With her right there in front of you, after she reacts negatively and takes offense to the comment, you tell her to grow thicker skin and get some common sense, as though somehow she had it coming and her big bust automatically means she’s being sexually forward with herself whether she likes, it or not. Should that be acceptable behavior just because you’re not telling her in person? Why would we purposefully choose to treat each other like that?
I don’t think it’s surprise, so much as it is disappointment and frustration that they are unable to participate normally in some fairly ordinary activities without their breasts becoming a distraction.
I mean, take this photo set, for example; she’s not wearing a terribly form-clinging shirt, just something that most anyone else could wear without issue. Yet, here we are. Pretty much anything tighter than a burqa would also invite more comments on her breasts =\ .
It must start to get irritating after the second or third cosplay…
replace “the internet” with “humanity in general”.
You need to go back and reread my posts. Once again, I never said one shouldn’t call creeps out, I said that you should accept them as a natural part of the process, which they are. The human element you bring up is a two way street.
Like it or not, Helix does need to change because she needs a thicker skin and more common sense. As I said before, she published a photo on the internet, that makes it subject to population of the internet and we all know, not everyone has upstanding character. If she didn’t want such attention, she shouldn’t have uploaded the photos.
And of course you’re free to speak out on the internet. Hell, speak until you’re blue in the face, but you should keep in mind you’re fighting human nature, and that’s a fight you will never win, unless you take away free will.
So we shouldn’t say anything to creeps about being creeps as it would seem impossible to you to reach those individuals? Helix is the one who needs to change, not the creeps?
Speaking against things doesn’t become a worthless cause just because it’s the internet. The human element is still very much in play.
Oh, neat ^^ ! Armor really isn’t my thing, but it can look pretty nice, especially with a group ^^ . I just don’t understand how you can deal with the heat and the weight, though! Just wearing thick fabric leaves me feeling dead on my feet pretty quickly…
I know what you mean with regards to media cosplay, though; I’ve not been involved with cosplay for years now, ever since I quit going to anime conventions, but I saw some darned low-effort work in my time. I was never terribly picky with regards to accuracy, within reason, but I always wanted people to try, you know? But, well, I shouldn’t be badmouthing people from years ago behind their backs ^^; … …Not that such concerns stopped people at the time, of course, but it always seemed rude to me.
Although I will say that it’s such a shame that half the time it seemed like an attractive person who put no effort into their cosplay and memorized a catchphrase or two would get all of the attention over a person who was perhaps a bit plain, but really nailed all of the details =\ . I mean, those of us in the community noticed, but it certainly didn’t seem to matter much in the con itself =\ … But perhaps I’m exagerating a bit - we always see what we want to see, after all.
from this sort of thing
to this. But even when it comes to simple media fandoms, I am just like “I thought you really really liked this! How can you disgrace it with such a terribly inaccurate cosplay!?!” especially if the series is renowned for ridiculously complicated design
@Muffen-Man
Eh, the alternative just seems (and has come out as being and resulting in) far worse chicanery in my opinion. It’s just damn sad that for fear of being tarred with words nobody will frickin’ stand up and fight that shit. Makes one really lose faith in anything short of a full-on one-says-all-do dictatorship/monarchism.
I’ve just been hearing it over and over since I was 14 and I wish the assholes who kept going on that it was the only way would just up and die or nuke each other to dust already.
Helix keep up with your cosplay. You can only go up.
Replace “Bronies” with “The internet” and you have exactly the same thing.
Day 1: Bronies still can’t accept each others opinions. It seems they don’t care regardless if they’re actions are wrong or not, hopefully by posting my opinion they will accept me
No. For the purpose of brony studies, let them go on.
A minor point of clarification; the intent of telling a person “Dude, you’re being a creep” is not usually to change the behavior of the offending person (who is unlikely to care, unless they face social condemnation or a legthy banishment), but rather to signal to others who might otherwise behave similarly that they are behaving contrary to the social norms of the community. It’s more a method of minimization, rather than correction.
That said, my arguments were intended to be limited to defending the choice to criticize people making undesirable comments regarding cosplayers. It does not appear that our actual issues overlap much, and I’ve little interest in arguing against the point you’re actually arguing, so it doesn’t appear that there’s much reason to continue this debate.
I’m not big on it myself, but that’s the society we live in, adult/minor relationships have started witch hunts against the adult even when the minor was close to 18, I read a story on one case where she was two weeks away and he ended up going on the sex offender registry. Brain development at certain ages yadda yadda I’m sure you know the rigmarole. One thing though is that you gotta draw the line somewhere, or else you’ve got people claiming that the 14 year old they enticed was really mature for their age.
And it’s worth noting that Frowning Pony DID delete most of the offending comments. But he ALSO deleted several of the comments of that one BP who got a little TOO defensive about it and basically started this whole mess in the first place.