@Chopsticks
On the topic of that last paragraph (along with some bits of previous mentions), it got me thinking; I still believe Chrysalis knew Changelings can metamorphasize as im sure she either knows her own biology after a 1000 years or expirienced a changeling accidentally metamorphasizing. But i never really thought about how she kept other Changelings from finding out, if they didn’t know already and were indoctronated to think metamorphasizing was something like a death sentance. but im guessing its because they genuinely didn’t know due to the lack of general education and a lack of experimentation, after all: why would they need to try anything new? they’re a hive and always listen to their queen. so if the queen never mentions anything about metamorphasizing, then it might as well not exist in their minds.

But thats speculation, and the truth is that we’ll never know the full story, and i’d rather not start a fire again. Though i do want to quickly change the subject onto the idea of her redemption, or lack thereof. I understand the side of the fandom who say “not everyone can/should be redeemed” and i think that statement is true if we were talking about more grounded shows, but i have to disagree with MLP in particular, and not just because its a show about magical horses. I wish EVERY villian got a satisfying redemption; except literal personifications of Evil like Daybreaker and NM (even though i sorta wish they did, despite technically being the same person as their uncorrupt counterparts, i like to think they’re seperate entities)
The reason why i think Chrysalis in particular (and Cozy/Tirek by extension) is because turning villians to stone was Celestia’s way of dealing with villian(s), not Twilights way. And even though i understand the show wanted to tell kids that not every poblem can be solved with Friendship, thats not what the show was about. Everything in equestia can be solved with the Magic of Friendship, even Race wars that Chrysalis started by spreading rumors,rumors brought equestia to its knees… how does society function lol..
But my point is, Chrysalis and the other two shouldn’t have been turned to stone because i honestly don’t think thats what Twilight would have done, especially since one is just a child and the other is just a massive megalomaniac, he’s not even evil per se, just likes to eat magic to make himself stronger.
Plus, i feel bad for Chrysalis because she went mentally insane and made “friends” with a wood log that once looked like Twilight and melted infront of her.

Edit: My “quick” divergance of the subject was longer than my initial speculation. Man do i love to yap, but i take applying somewhat logical thinking and applying it to fictional media im passionate about seriously dammit.

The cutely innocent best filly is trying to play lawyer for Queen Chrysalis, d’awww.

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I think you accidentally misinterpreted the application of “starve”. Not saying she intentionally kept her hive weak and constantly on the verge of death; clearly Thorax seemed to go quite some time before literal starvation. Rather, instead of kindly and responsibly seeking out better alternatives for her subjects or even herself, she maintained a socially unhealthy and aggressive lifestyle that involved deceptively draining love from others.

Chrysalis stated that her hive would go out to gather the love and in turn bring some back to her. “Starve” to mean intentionally maintaining the status quo in that, in order to survive via eating love, the Changelings were deadlocked into this deal. It’s entirely possible for a completely selfish and hateful society to coexist–by contributing to the whole, you maintain your own survival and selfish desires.

In the final confrontation, Starlight even mentions: “You don’t have to live your lives starving all the time.”
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It does with the right definition and application.
All beings are naturally born lazy, selfish, not just wanting to survive, but survive well (especially at the expense of others where possible) and therefore evil. Doing anything for your own survival instead of someone else’s links back to this. We could consider mutual arrangements in an acceptable gray area, but the motives are still ulterior. The Changelings represent a direct, living embodiment of this concept.

Love [Unconditional Love, true Love) is the opposite of this concept: personal self sacrifice, denying/harming yourself on purpose for the good will of someone else. It is the highest form of morality; Friendship is this idea.

By personally self-sacrificing, the Changelings realized they can generate their own Love, giving it to others, and better sustaining themselves through each other and others besides. Starlight Glimmer suggested the Changelings can self-sacrifice, Loving Unconditionally, finding Friendship, to remove the need to feed.

On further…

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Part of being wrongfully selfish and evil is being close-minded, prideful, and qualities we pin to narcissism. Instead of caring enough for external absolute truth even in the possibility of being wrong, thinking about others and what may be best.

While she might justify her ways in her mind, the fact she did not have or think with Unconditional Love means her intentions were never “good” or the benefit of the hive.

[@Fenixwing13]

Well, if I may say with friendly sincerity, that’s also irrelevant.

Were Queen Chrysalis of a good mind for her hive, this method would’ve been discoverable.
That’s why “trying your hardest” is not in itself a valid excuse for people to do wrongfully evil things against others. An Unconditionally Loving person (err, Changeling Queen) will apply external logic to the best of their ability to all possible options that benefits the most with minimal damage.

Even so, seeing the example by ponies to a degree (certainly when Twilight and company came along to exercise Love to full potential). And by continually rejecting the option to change via self-sacrifice even when it appeared, we know Queen Chrysalis was beyond redemption. Even if she did know of the option, she wouldn’t have taken it because she refuses to do the right thing. That’s what makes her irredeemable.

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I know I joke a lot about Cozy Glow being cutely innocent, but she did have the best chance given. Knowledge about Unconditional Love (Friendship), studying and analyzing it, even being an expert doesn’t mean it’ll be put into practice.

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As far as Queen Chrysalis’ surprise, there’s a lot of possibilities, but I didn’t see anything till her defeat seemed assured, and that looked more like generalized shock. It could’ve been due to any number of equally valid thoughts: that so many Changelings turned, maybe she knew it was possible but didn’t seriously expect any to go through with it (maybe that’s why 1 Changeling was a threat?), that destruction of the hive was so complete, maybe altogether, etc. There’s no one possibility here that outweighs another as a probability.

@-Alter-
Still waiting for that apology. Yes it is nice art. The “February 30th” line is hilarious.

Unrelated to all that below, i do want to say that i really like Sockiepuppetry’s art, its always quite fun to look at

@Fenixwing13
Neither of us “won” pal nor have i claimed to “won” (and no, me wanting the discussion to end doesn’t mean i dubbed myself the “winner”, if anything i lost both time and patience), we’re both leaving with the exact same opinions as we started with.

@-Alter-
The word is “argument.” And this debate is over. Your arguments are now degenerating into rants. Your argument amounted to nothing, but as is typical with your sort, you duck out and claim victory without supporting any arguments whatsoever (the “Danth’s law” logical fallacy). That technique will not work here. At this point, I’m only replying because I want an apology for your condescending attitude. I know how the show goes, I saw it. I do not appreciate being talked down to like that.

@Fenixwing13
You gave your arguement, i said “I think you’re interpretation is wrong, here’s mine”, when i said whether or not you had anything to add, i meant anything refuting my point. you clearly have none so this “debate” has amounted to essentially nothing. but as a farewell, i’ll say this: timestamp 17:23 (give or take if theres brand intros) is the reaction your referring to, correct? Right as Throax is entering his chrysalis, and not the rubble emergeance i thought you were referring to? that still doesn’t look like “suprised” to me. looks more like “ow, my back”

>I said Chrysalis had no idea the transformation was a thing, based on her reactions, you say she was “alerted” so therefore she knew all along? Your entire point is a non sequitor.

despite claiming i have a hard time reading your arguement, you seem to not have read mine. I said she LIKELY knew because it didn’t seem she was suprised (in both reactions), and that logically speaking, its obvious that Changelings can change. I said she seemed more alerted due to the fact she was surrounded and was willing to put up a fight otherwise. But that was refering to her later reaction, the reaction you’re speaking of looks to be more of anguish, considering she just got slammed into her throne and cracked it

You also claim that im running on assuptions, yet you’re doing the same. You’re assuming she didn’t know because you interpreted her reaction as “suprised”. And whilst its true that the show never stated that she DID know, it also never says she DIDN’T know. Its times like these that we the viewer can and should fill in the blanks to questions the show never answered. But its a lot easier to theorize when you think about what is more likely the answer based on the information that is given. In our case: Did Chrysalis know Changelings could undergo Metamorphosis? Based on what we know, i think she did.

@-Alter-
I already gave my interpretation at the start of this thread. Not only can you not pay attention to details on the show, you can’t even keep track of an argument you’re involved in. Indeed, the fact that you “laid out the whole scene” when I had just cited it was immensely condescending and rude. It’s not even the scene I was referring to, it’s her reaction as Thorax was undergoing the transformation, not after she came out of the rubble. Frankly, your “argument” is spurious at best. It relies to heavily on fan assumptions and circling around other points. I’m not even sure you even know what your point is. I said Chrysalis had no idea the transformation was a thing, based on her reactions, you say she was “alerted” so therefore she knew all along? Your entire point is a non sequitor.

@Fenixwing13
Do you actually have anything against my point or any have any viewpoint that you would like to add that would indicate that she was actually suprised to know that they could transform? Or are we just gonna say “This person made a mistake on a completely seperate topic, which means their whole point is invalid”?

I laid out the whole scene, so give me your interpretation, why do you think Chrysalis was suprised after the fact she watched one of them transform just a minute ago? Or did my arguement change your opinion on the idea that it wasn’t a “suprised” reaction but more-so an “alerted” reaction to the fact that she’s now surrounded by her former Hive and the most powerful magic users?

@-Alter-
Trying to summarize the episode for me when I clearly knew it already would imply otherwise.

@Fenixwing13
I confused it with the Canterlot wedding, thats on me. but that has nothing to do with the rest of my point, she still staged a coup against Cadance who was still considered a Princess at the time, which alone would have tarnished her reputation with the soon to be Crystal Empire, which WAS the point of the first sentance. Chrysalis gives the ponies reason to hate. Its not like the two leading bodies of Government invade the Badlands. Canterlot and the Crystal Empire are reactive not proactive.

And I never even claimed the invasion was a a part of the same episode. I simply recalled the events of the Changeling reformation so i could apply my interpretation, i didn’t say you didn’t know or that you didn’t remember

@-Alter-
Changelings never invaded the Crystal Empire before Thorax came.

@-Alter-
Chrysalis never went to the Crystal Empire, let alone twice. Are you sure you’re not confusing her with Sombra. In any case, it’s poor for you to lecture me on what happens in an episode when it’s clear you can’t pay attention to major details like that. I saw the episode, I don’t need you to tell me how the episode went.

@Fenixwing13
Thorax’s imprisonment was a result of Chrysalis GIVING them a reason to hate Changelings, especially since Throax was found on the outskirts of the Crystal Empire; a place she invaded twice and basically staged a coup.

And while yes, the show doesn’t outright say she didn’t know, im sure her long life span has atleast allowed her to witness an accidental Metamorphosis, if she didn’t know about it already.

And i just rewatched the part of the episode where she emerges from her crumbled throne as im writing this, let me explain what exactly happens in the scene, then i’ll give my interpretation.

Starlight tells thorax to give Chrysalis his love, he does and sends Chrysalis into her throne, then he proceeds to form a chryslis (thats the actual name of the cocoon butterflies make). He emerges as a Changedling, then the rest of the Changeling follow suite, which causes Chrysalis’ throne to fully collapse onto herself. all the captives are freed from their pods and theres a nice big reuinion. Chrysalis emerges from the rubble of her throne, hisses, then looks hesitent. The camera pans across the screen to show everyone with stern looking expressions.

To me: It seemed like Chrysalis was still willing to put up a fight, but stopped in her tracks when she saw that she was alone, and that the Elements and the Alicorns were now freed from their pods. Before her throne collapsed, she SAW Throax transform, and was blinded by the bright light of her entire Hive transforming. Maybe she was suprised when the realization hit her; that her whole Hive transformed, but even then i find it more believable that she would’ve been suprised that her Hive so easily “betrayed” her rather than Chrysalis thinking “oh shit, we can go through metamorhosis?”

edit: besides, was it such an alien concept to Chrysalis that her Changelings could… Change? That sounds a bit silly
even if they couldn’t change, Chrysalis could’ve still attempted Diplomacy like Thorax did and taught her Hive to love each other. The idea of Changelings feeding each other is such an obvious solution to their hunger problem. I mean, one could argue that MAYBE they’d have deminishing returns, and that it would require more energy to make love than it does to consume the same amount of love that is produced, similiarly to electricity.

But the show doesn’t make the destinction that it requires any effort at all to make love, and i doubt it does. I mean, we don’t use extra energy to be nice to one another. Being nice requires the same amount of effort as being mean, it just depends one someones mindset.

@-Alter-
There’s is no evidence in either the comics or the show that she knew or even suspected it was possible. When Thirax undergoes his change, she looked completely shocked by what was happening. She seemed to have no idea what was happening. She’s a narc, no doubt. But fans keep assigning her more knowledge than she did. Frankly, given the ponies xenophobic reactions to any creature not-pony (never mind a race as scary as the changelings), it’s easy to see why Chrysalis would assume they had to steal it. Even Thorax nearly got tossed in the dungeon simply for being a changeling in pony lands.

@Fenixwing13
Its not the act of sharing love that sustains the new changelings, they still eat love, they just realized that they could make their own love instead of taking others. Chrysalis made them bitter, so they shared no love to one another.

Chrysalis likely knew that she could make her own love if she allowed herself and her Hive TO love. But its clear that she is very stubborn and narcissistic, she thinks her way of life and her views are the correct one, and that the ponies ideology of loving is self-destructive and makes them weak. Chrysalis called her Hive corrupt because they switched sides and she viewed them as weak as a result. She believed the ponies “corrupted” her Hive with their Ideology, not that their biology was corrupted.

She almost certainly knew that Changelings could undergo Metamorhosis, but to activate the process would be to admit defeat and admit that her viewpoint was wrong.

@Background Pony #B860
Thats kinda the problem, she’s trying HER best, but her best is very stubborn and closed-minded.
Don’t get me wrong, im not agreeing with MeanLucario’s point, i think Chrysalis has expeience as a leader, but its exerience as the wrong kind of leader; a dictator.

She had a single bad exerience with ponies and let it define her whole ideology of: We’re different, so they hate us. and if they hate us, we’ll give them a reason to hate.

And she is VERY close-minded and WAY too prideful, to the point she is unwilling to even attempt other options that she deems against her beliefs, such as diplomacy. She believes her view is the correct one, and that what she is doing is truely for the best of the Hive, and that forms a cycle of; Im trying my hardest, and we’ve made it this far, so my hardship is true and just.

@Meanlucario
I’ll never understand how fans keep thinking she deliberately starved her own people, when the show itself showed she had no idea they were supposed to share love. Even after their transformation, she remained certain they had been “corrupted” somehow. I’m not denying she wasn’t selfish and kept the largest share for herself. But she managed to keep that hive going for a thousand years, so she must have been doing something right at least. And really? The whole “sharing love” thing from creatures that need to eat it never made much sense. It’s like the writers copped out from writing about a difficult issue and instead made all the changelings nice now, and replaced a very interesting character with a milquetoast “good” character.

@Meanlucario
She was doing her best to feed them.

@Background Pony #B860
I hardly count starving your people as worthy experience.

@Meanlucario
She literally does though.

@Background Pony #B860
Outside of being a bitch, not very much.

@Fenixwing13
I mean, the prisons in MLP tend to work well unless Discord is involved.

Chrysalis does have experience over him.

Sooo …. is that a “Yes”?

I love everything about this