Zgrig

@Flufux

for people to warm up to the idea

Didn’t they spent entire last season warming us up to this idea?

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Flufux

Flufux Corporations

@Kill-R

No, not necessarily. Starlight was taken from a pony who stole cutie marks just to enact power and control over a town for no evident reason other than being evil, to someone who was given a backstory, in just the two episodes of the S5 finale. This could bring up a whole discussion as to how good or bad it was to create a seemingly sudden backstory for Starlight like that and make it be about a tantrum for a former friend of all things, but it’s there nevertheless, and people accept it.

That’s not what I remember. Back when the season 5 finale aired, everyone and their mother was up in arms over how easily she was forgiven, calling her a Mary Sue or a complete Karma Houdini (that is villains who never get punished for their actions). It was only through her appearances in season 6 and 7 that people eventually came around to accepting that her turn was genuine…and even then she still has haters.

Also, at that point I remember everyone getting sick of all the villains being reformed, and I also remembering people cheering, yes cheering, when Chrysalis denied Starlight’s offer to be friends and swear revenge on her instead.

Given that the evil trio showed up in the final season of the show, there wouldn’t be another season for people to warm up to the idea, and we would never be able to see them as good creatures, or how their lives would be like if they did so. Also, them being turned to stone is an ambiguous ending for them when you think about it. They could be left in there for eternity, but they could also be unfrozen at any time to be reformed or whatnot. Given that the series is ended, its just your imagination standing in the way of what happens next.

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Kill-R

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@Flufux

when a character crosses what is known as the Moral Event Horizon, where they do something so evil and unforgivable that reforming them would be a huge strain on the suspension of disbelief

And that was my point with the whole thing about Nightmare Moon. Just because we don’t get to see much of the consequences of her permanent night doesn’t mean it wouldn’t have had some pretty serious consequences on the livelihood of every pony in Equestria. Yet from the very pilot, the universe establishes that evil is dealt with in very different ways in Equestria than in other fictional stories, which in a way makes it harder to really define where that Moral Event Horizon really is.

Starlight genuinely thought she was doing something good with her village

That’s something that exposes the larger problem to me. Starlight could have been written to simply be evil for the sake of it and have her face a fate much worse than what she got and be done with it. It would have been the path of least resistance in terms of writing effort. Instead, the fact that they gave her some backstory as to why she acted the way she did is what makes her have an interesting personality, a chance at redemption, and something that shows some additional amount of effort on the part of the writers, however little more it may be. It takes ever-so-slightly more talent to write villains you can sympathize with than to write “Evil Characters 1, 2 and 3” and use them simply as a means to give the heroes a hurdle to overcome for the sake of it and leave it at that. Again, this ties in with my point about the writers seemingly wanting to create a dynamic between these three characters that actually gave them some depth, something I think could have been a stronger friendship lesson fitting for the series finale, all achieved by leading some people to believe there was going to be some character-depth involved in the process, rather than just backpedaling on that and saying nah, they’re just evil. Yes, under the assumption that they are pure evil, it makes sense to just trap them in stone, but that’s lazy writing, and is why people think makes for a weak finale of a show that lasted for a whole 9 years.

Also, King Sombra and the Storm King got far worse fates than they did, yet no one seems to care much about them, do they?

True, but I’d say that’s just more grounds to begin an argument as to why writing antagonists for the sake of being evil does not take skill and generally leads to somewhat lackluster stories that don’t stick with people as much as the ones that present actual depth.

Honestly, seeing any of these monsters get reformed, especially after all they did in the finale, would be completely undeserved and not make a lick of sense from a story-telling perspective

I don’t deny that a finale that ended with everyone smiling and being happy would have been a bit ridiculous after how difficult the three had proven to abandoning their evil ways, but I do think there could have been space just fine to have them receive a bit of tough love (but not too tough like a stone imprisonment for eternity) and imply the ponies are willing to take their time to reform them individually, keeping them subdued from gaining power back in the meantime. Once again, because these could have had backstories that shine a better light on why they act the way they do, like you pointed out with Starlight.

I’m gonna take the liberty to reply to your other post as well since I think the context of it ties with what we discussed above that it is worth addressing as well:

However, the character was so popular with audiences that they had to give him a greater role for the rest of the series, and the only way to do that properly was to reform him…and since the only really bad things he did other than making things weird all over the place was either just implied or specifically to stop the Mane Six from turning him to stone, it wasn’t to hard to re-imagine him as this more jerkish-yet funny morally grey character than a straight up villain

Agreed. However, the thing about writing is that you have to consider that what you write isn’t in a vacuum, and may potentially come back to bite you in the ass in the future. So, even if you can justify Discord being more morally gray than how he was initially portrayed, the end result is that you still wrote aspects of him that show him being more evil, and have to account for it. It doesn’t matter how you may play the character in the future, the thing you wrote is there and can now be used as arguments for establishing certain points in a discussion, just like @Background Pony #9260 did by pointing out Discord was, in fact, not as nice as they tried to play him later. His argument is still valid in showcasing inconsistencies between him and what people use as justification for the fate of the three series-finale villains.

If the villain trio were to be reformed, they would need at least a full season to show they were genuine about it given that they have all shown next to no redeeming qualities for the majority of the show

No, not necessarily. Starlight was taken from a pony who stole cutie marks just to enact power and control over a town for no evident reason other than being evil, to someone who was given a backstory, in just the two episodes of the S5 finale. This could bring up a whole discussion as to how good or bad it was to create a seemingly sudden backstory for Starlight like that and make it be about a tantrum for a former friend of all things, but it’s there nevertheless, and people accept it.

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Flufux

Flufux Corporations

@Background Pony #9260
Alright, think of it like this. From a purely story and show-making perspective. At the start, Discord was only meant to be a one-shot villain, so there was no point in making him too sympathetic at the time. However, the character was so popular with audiences that they had to give him a greater role for the rest of the series, and the only way to do that properly was to reform him…and since the only really bad things he did other than making things weird all over the place was either just implied or specifically to stop the Mane Six from turning him to stone, it wasn’t to hard to re-imagine him as this more jerkish-yet funny morally grey character than a straight up villain.

If the villain trio were to be reformed, they would need at least a full season to show they were genuine about it given that they have all shown next to no redeeming qualities for the majority of the show…and we wouldn’t have a villain team up in the final season. Also, every single part of their characters would have to be reworked from the ground up and become completely different people (er ponies, centaurs, changelings), and honestly…that would be boring.

Simply put, they’re villains, they’re evil, and its up to the ponies to stop them. Simple as that.

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Background Pony #8379

@Flufux

Didn’t the stained glass windows in Return of Harmony show Discord dangling ponies over a fire?

Discord liked create chaos and disharmony between people. Look at what he did to the Mane Six. I find it probable that it was he that caused the discourse that led to the Windigos forming in the first Hearth’s Warming.

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Background Pony #8379

@Beau Skunky

The thing that bothers some people with Discord is that he’s supposed to be reformed, yet in doing what he did he showed echoes of his former self. The villains he gathered were nothing but game pieces to him. He didn’t care about their well-being as evidenced when he let the Mane Six kill Sombra a second time when he could’ve probably detained him without destroying him. Discord’s whole thing before his reformation was that he didn’t think of beings as people, just dominoes he could set up and knock down when it amused him. And regarding the defense of the triad, while they did many evil things, they were only able to do it because it was Discord who allowed them to get to that point. Cozy and Tirek were stuck in Tartarus. Chrysalis was mentally falling apart. Sombra was dead.

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Flufux

Flufux Corporations

@Kill-R
Yes, but even in fiction there’s a line to be drawn…especially when a character crosses what is known as the Moral Event Horizon, where they do something so evil and unforgivable that reforming them would be a huge strain on the suspension of disbelief. Starlight Glimmer, Discord, Nightmare Moon and the Pony of Shadows never actually crossed that boundary. They always had something sympathetic in them, even at their worst. Starlight genuinely thought she was doing something good with her village, Discord was more of an obnoxious jerk with cosmic powers than a villain, and Nightmare Moon and the Pony of Shadows were just dark beings that corrupted a pony that was actually good all along (plus, neither of them actually did much evil onscreen anyway).

Queen Chrysalis repeatedly tried to conquer Equestria and use its population as a food source, and not to feed her people, but to give it all to her while she also kept them from reaching their full potential and let them starve instead, and even in defeat, she actively refuses to ever surrender or turn good…even despite what she could gain from doing so. Lord Tirek has proven that all he cares about is making himself more powerful at any cost. When his brother pleaded for him to stop and change his ways, he refused. When Discord proved himself to be a valued and useful ally to him, he thanked him by turning on him and stealing his magic…and don’t even get me started on Cozy Glow. She’s a manipulative, power-hungry psychopath who was willing to drain all the magic in the world, which she knew would hurt countless lives, but she didn’t care because it would have made her more powerful in the end. She also knows and embraces that she’s evil, and even says as much.

Honestly, seeing any of these monsters get reformed, especially after all they did in the finale, would be completely undeserved and not make a lick of sense from a story-telling perspective. Also, King Sombra and the Storm King got far worse fates than they did, yet no one seems to care much about them, do they?

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Kill-R

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@Beau Skunky

not every bad person can be reformed. That’s sadly true of real life too unfortunately.

Sure, but we’re talking about a cartoon show that some people fell in love with not because of how accurately it portrayed reality, but because of how much better it made Equestria be compared to real life, accentuating positive feelings and ideas instead of trying to emulate the significantly more noticeable lows of real life. For crying out loud, we had Nightmare Moon stay imprisoned for a 1000 years, get shot by rainbow beams for a couple of seconds, and suddenly having Luna crying with Celestia and pretty much everything going back to normal.

With that and the fact that some people already pointed out about how it seemed some previous episodes were teasing these villains being more than just “lol we’re evil”, just to throw that away, I think the opposition some people like me have to the idea that the finale can be considered good writing just because “it’s how real life be” becomes perfectly justified.

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Beau Skunky

Rub my belly!

I don’t get why fans can’t accept that not every bad person can be reformed. That’s sadly true of real life too unfortunately.

@Background Pony #79C0

so the one who f’d up by accident and legitimately tried to change for the better should be left to die, but those who actively, purposefully seeks the suffering of perhaps millions of creatures should be given a second chance. You want to give the shaft, give them all the shaft!

Agreed… I really don’t get this double standard that characters whom were reformed either “don’t deserve it” or “deserve death.” (I recall, even back when Discord used to be bad, he never actually tried to kill anyone, same for Starlight, and it’s odd many fans confusingly thought she tried to destroy Equestria, when she never did.)
Yet, meanwhile, those whom have done worse deeds, “deserve reformation, and cookies.” Some even try to flat out deny the villainous trio ever did anything wrong, or demonize characters who’ve done less.

It’s like some fans are just determined to hate anything that happens in the show. I’m sure even if the Villainous Trio were reformed, other fans would be complaining instead. It’s lose lose either way, it’s impossible to please every brony.

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Background Pony #8379

I think what pissed a lot of people off was they started to care about what happened to the triad because the writers gave them an interesting dynamic. One could almost see them as some kind of dysfunctional family. And because this was the finale their fate is canonically permanent because we never see them again and it was never mentioned that they were freed, or were intended to be freed. Discord, crooked hypocrite that he is, said ‘Together Forever’.

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Starswirl

@Background Pony #EF72
This was a big problem the show created for itself: that the effort to redeem somepony depends on how useful they’ll prove to be.

Though it should be noted, Twilight Sparkle herself fought to have Discord released with the others when he had no power anymore and was seemingly useless.

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marley

Just like to point out that there may be a reason for the imprisonment and keeping them evil. Might be the G5 opener.

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Flufux

Flufux Corporations

@Background Pony #07F3
Given the look on the princesses faces, I’d say they were about to do something much worse to the trio than turn them to stone before Discord suggested it.

“There isn’t a punishment worthy of all you done!” -Princess Celestia.

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superfun

She deserved her fate.

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Background Pony #C67D

@Macaroni C-Pony

it can’t be solved with friendship

More like “It can be solved with a-bomb if friendship will not provide you enough profit”© Nuclear Twilight.

I mean they went the extra mile to reform Discord, but with this trio they basically went like this:

-Are you sorry?
-No!
-Well, you are not powerful enough for us so we will not spend our time on your reformation. Life imprisonment it is.

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Macaroni C-Pony

@PeppermintSwirl
The end literally taught that they’re will be problems in life that can’t be solved with friendship.

And just because those situations happen doesn’t make that concept of friendship any less valuable than it is.

“Friendship isn’t easy, but it’s always worth fighting for”

In real life, the outcome will always be circumstantial, but it’s seldom the worst case scenario

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Background Pony #DE09

Just goes to show how messed up this whole thing is. They should have been reformed.

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PeppermintSwirl

Dash is best

MLP:FiM: Reforms almost every single villain in the series
Cozy Glow: Exists
FiM: Let’s permanently imprison them in stone instead. Nope, nothing OOC about the Princesses doing this here and the Mane Six being okay with it. It clearly doesn’t override most morals taught in the show.

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Background Pony #34D7

@Background Pony #7C67

Discord should have been drawn and quartered so his element is permanently destroyed.

Like they could ever do that.

Glimmer should have been left in the Fallout universe to starve and die for trying to destroy entire multiverse.

No she didn’t - she tried to ruin Twilight’s friendships; bringing about the apocalypse was never ever ever her end goal, like seriously what does she have to gain from that.

But the trio should have been reformed.

Lovely double standards you’ve got there: so the one who f’d up by accident and legitimately tried to change for the better should be left to die, but those who actively, purposefully seeks the suffering of perhaps millions of creatures should be given a second chance. You want to give the shaft, give them all the shaft!

Though I should note that I too would like to see the three reformed - it’d make for a nice ending, and really hammers in the fact that Equestria is entering a new period of harmony, a Pax Twilightica of sorts. But given the characters we’re dealing with and the series’ previous reformations, that’d very much require a whole season entirely devoted to them. And while that’d be absolutely lovely, that kind of shift in tone would probably not be as interesting to the original target audience for this show.

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Kill-R

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@Tavi959

Nobody wanted these villains reformed

Wrong.

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Background Pony #FF77

@Beau Skunky
Discord should have been drawn and quartered so his element is permanently destroyed.

Glimmer should have been left in the Fallout universe to starve and die for trying to destroy entire multiverse.

But the trio should have been reformed. Tirek should have been reunited with Scorpan, Chrysalis should have turned into butterfly deer, and Cozy Glow should have redemption arc similar to what Vito drew, a better ending for Cozy.

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Beau Skunky

Rub my belly!

@Tavi959
Actually, in fairness, there’s several people here whom wanted them reformed, (including fanartists like Vito) or mistakenly thought that joke moment in “Frenemies” when the 3 almost learn a lesson in friendship, (only to brush it off) was foreshadowing it, and therefore set themselves up for disapointment.
(Some are even taking it so far as to deny the villainous trio ever did anything wrong, or try to say the heroes were in the “wrong,” or characters like Discord/Starlight/ect. deserved punishment instead. So the arguments about it have gotten pretty wild.)

Also, many other fans are getting sick of villains or antagonists constantly getting reformed, so even if that did happen, then other fans would be upset & complaining about the finale instead. So it’s lose-lose no matter what Haber & the staff did to them.

I loved the villainous trio, but I’m honestly not that upset about the finale.

@Tavi959

The original MLP had more violence than this. Stop excusing your whining with “it’s supposed to be for kids”.

People would be surprised how many G1 MLP villains were killed off. The 1980s were hardcore.

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Tavi959

Warning: Nuts Inside

Holy crap, are people still whining about this? Nobody wanted these villains reformed, so why is anyone surprised that this was the outcome?

The original MLP had more violence than this. Stop excusing your whining with “it’s supposed to be for kids”.

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illuminati

Derpibooru what does the image tag counter say about Unicorn Twilight’s power level?

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Background Pony #D804

@Flufux
The three villain where judged by the harmony(or love for sombra and the crystal heart).
The harmony choose to only remove the magic of the villain trio this time, no petrification like discord, totally destruction like sombra or tartarus like Tirek. But discord manipulate the princesses to make the punishment instead of following the harmony like happened in the previous season

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