Cirrus Light
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Sciencepone of Science!
Reality doesn’t have layers that we know of…
I’m well aware that dreams are within this reality - at least within this reality. That’s why it’s a hierarchical relationship instead of an equal one. Within this reality, you can clearly see that dreams exist - as you said, you could use a machine to scan the brain.
 
But within a dream itself, you cannot do the reverse, and that’s the important part. A dream’s existence within the physical reality is irrelevant; but the lack of any evidence of a waking world within a dream is my point. My point is that every argument you and Fwelin have made here, could be made within a dream, and you would be wrong - disproving the notion that what you put forward are proofs of this reality being so definite, absolute, and ultimate. The proofs fail, because they also apply to “realities” that are not ultimate - that is my point. “Realities” that we can show are dreams, within this one, but that is irrelevant since you cannot show that they are dreams within them, if that particular dream forbids it as they often do.
 
…is an unfalsifiable claim, which means it has no place in this discussion.
That’s what I said about physics. This isn’t physics, and it’s somewhat odd to make physics demands of a philosophical discussion. This is existential philosophy. And you can’t pretend to be aloof to it, either - you also make an unfalsifiable assumption;
 
And the whole point of physics and science as a whole is to assume reality is constant
And that’s a key point; it’s an assumption and nothing but. It means that all of science and physics are confined to this reality by definition.
 
It makes physics and science very powerful since they rely on testability; but it doesn’t invalidate philosophy, either. Philosophy exists within science and physics somewhat depends on it; the specific example I’m thinking of are interpretations of theories. Here’s a short article on two interpretations of Special Relativity that I mentioned to Fwelin, the ‘Block Universe’ and ‘Lotentzian Ether’.
 
It’s comfortable to make a definitist, finitist statement and assume this is the only reality - to hold this rigid, absolute view of the universe, but I’m not satisfied by it because you could apply the exact same logic within a dream, and forever be confined to the “physics” within the dream. Oh, I love physics - you better believe it - but I’m well aware that it has its limitations. This is actually one of the reasons I’m so fascinated by General Relativity, though - because it describes spacetime, and spacetime is the essence of this reality. “The Canvas upon which the Universe is painted”, I think of it as.
 
In any case, I refuse to make or accept the assumption that this is the only, definite reality. Any argument you can make about this reality being definite (“definite” meaning “the only” or “the highest” order of reality) can be applied to a dream, and in my mind, that is proof that those arguments are not successful in proving anything, because I can point to an example of them being wrong, thus proof of their invalidity.
 
 
And at the same time I can point to your arguments not being correct, I can point to precedent for reality having a “layer” “above” it - another sort of reality where you can see the lower layer exist within it.
Eeveeinheat
Equality - In our state, we do not stand out.
Magical Inkwell - Wrote MLP fanfiction consisting of at least around 1.5k words, and has a verified link to the platform of their choice

Because they play a special role in existential “reality”. They illustrate that reality can have layers. The fact that there’s a hierarchy among the layers does not disprove the notion of higher layers. If anything, the pattern would seem to indicate that there’s more layers.
 
Reality doesn’t have layers that we know of. Your way of thinking about this seems to be whimsical and wistful as if you are latching onto this dream analogy as evidence for your claim. Dreams are still in the same reality as not in a dream. You are still experiencing the world through your brain in each. Heck, when you get out of a dream and you had yourself hooked up to a machine you can see the signals of said dream. That it was all in your head.
 
Your whole argument, “reality could be fake, because you can’t tell if you’re in a dream or not” is an unfalsifiable claim, which means it has no place in this discussion. You can’t even logic your way out of it, as it’s, pretty much, saying anything you know could be fake. And the whole point of physics and science as a whole is to assume reality is constant, which a dream is not. You CANNOT do science if you think reality might not be real, as that puts a question on all of your observations. So we assume it is real. And guess what? That works. Any philosopher who tries to argue that reality isn’t real (or might not be real) isn’t taken seriously in a discussion because he can’t be argued with. It’s pointless.
 
And heck, even people saying the universe is a simulation have more of a basis than saying it is a dream because that would still be constant. A form of reality. A dream is just a collection of memories, thoughts, experiences, played back in a semi-random form.
Cirrus Light
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Sciencepone of Science!
@Eeveeinheat  
Because they play a special role in existential “reality”. They illustrate that reality can have layers. The fact that there’s a hierarchy among the layers does not disprove the notion of higher layers. If anything, the pattern would seem to indicate that there’s more layers.
 
And most importantly, in a dream you lack the ability to tell you’re in a dream. It literally is a case-in-point world where you can prove that a world where “trees falling when you aren’t there to hear them don’t make a sound” actually exists, and a feeling that something is the “absolute” reality, that there’s nothing above it - is not any indication that that is true.
 
Fallibility of the senses, their severe limitations on shedding light to the most fundamental level of existence - is nothing but a concept - but with dreams, this severe limitation goes from being theory to something we have a concrete example of. They highlight just how much our senses are limited, and why you can’t trust them to make you believe there’s no higher or deeper reality.
 
They prove a concrete example where application of materialistic philosophy is simply flat-out wrong. Factors from an overarching reality control how a dream behaves, progresses, what is in the dream - but no experiment within the dream could ever produce evidence of an external, waking world - if the dream doesn’t allow it.
 
The entire conversation we’ve had here - every single bit of it, from Fwelin stating that physics is everything, to you arguing that dreams aren’t important for shedding light on reality - all of it could take place within a dream. Every argument you and him have made could be made by a sleeping person, trapped in that “lower” reality. There are dreams within dreams, so the argument that “it’s on top of another reality” could be used as well. You could simply lack awareness of inconsistencies in the dream - the dream could re-write itself every time you think you’ve found one, so your arguments of consistency would apply as well.
 
But ultimately, you would be wrong, and I see no reason why this “reality” is any different, since literally anything you could possibly say would apply in a dream - either directly, or through manipulation of our mental abilities to perceive things (ie, there’s an inconsistency in the dream, but you’re mentally prohibited from realizing it).
 
That is why dreams are such a big deal to me. Dreams, hallucinations, altered states - whatever any of them, though dreams are most useful for discussion since just about everyone has them - though hallucinations are often more vivid and real, not everyone has experience with them firsthand (and neither do I, fortunately…).
ShimmeringStallion

@Badumsquish  
I wonder how yastic would react…
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fluffy sylveon
@LogicalExtropolation  
I feel weird about making new tags though, especially when they’re not actually necessary.
LogicalExtropolation

@SuperSupermario24  
There isn’t any tag until it is first made. If you feel a tag should exist, but it does not, create it. All you need to do is hit enter after typing the new tag’s name and save your edit. I think I’ve made at least three.
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fluffy sylveon
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true
Blissey1
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@SuperSupermario24  
the “philosophy in the comments” tag should be enough warning for that
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fluffy sylveon
>tfw there’s no “walls of text in the comments” tag
Eeveeinheat
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@Cirrus Light  
I think this is the most I have ever disagreed with what you have said. I agree that our interpretation of physics isn’t complete, but it’s all we have. We can speculate all we want, but until it is varified in observations or experiments our ideas do not matter. Science works, like you said. Science is the only way of discovering the world that works if you do it right. Pure thought cannot get you anywhere without the observations to guide it.
 
All of our verifiable ideas are based on our understanding physics. And the most important scientific axiom is to assume physics (not our understanding but objective reality) is absolute. That it isn’t trying to trick us. Self-containing. Non-contradictory. Yet, you think dreams are something special and prove some point? We can detect dreams. They are quantifiable. They have limits. I honestly don’t undestand what point you are trying to get across by falsely comparing dreams to reality. Because we can see dream. We know it’s all in our heads. And in a few decades we will most likely be able to record dreams.
Cirrus Light
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Sciencepone of Science!
@Fwelin  
You make a claim, that “Only a truly fundamental universe could be fully self-consistent” - I do not agree with this claim.
 
Further, you claim that this reality is inherently different and more self-consistent than dreams. I must ask, how so?
 
If I have a dream that is fully self-consistent, then does that mean that is the “fundamental reality”, now?
 
If I can’t tell if a dream is self-consistent, then is it not any less self-consistent than reality? After all, in both cases, we merely don’t know that it isn’t self-consistent, so they are impossible to distinguish.
 
Do the laws of physics continue to apply when we don’t look at them? It’s a sort of re-phrasing of, “if a tree falls in the woods, does it make a sound”? I can’t prove it doesn’t, but you can neither prove that it does, but where the burden of proof lies is unclear - if you take a more existential view on reality, then the burden of proof is on you, but if, as you seem to be, you are a materialist, then the burden of proof is on me.
 
And where the burden of proof lies will determine who wins this argument, since neither is provable.
 
 
Anyways, I can point to very specific examples of questions which are not physics, but are nonetheless within your very field of physics - do we exist in a “block” universe, or one of a Lorentzian ether? Do you adhere to the Copenhagen interpretation, or the Everett Many Worlds interpretation?
 
Within General Relativity - do rods actually bend and time flow differently in “patches” of spacetime, while an underlying space is flat, or does spacetime itself bend and rods remain rigid?
 
The fact is these questions are not physics. They are intepretations of physical theories, and from what I’ve seen, most physicists agree that they’re fun to poke out, but aren’t really physics because in the end, they, much like qualia, make absolutely no difference in the outcome of any experiments.
 
They are not knowable, if you will. Much like you cannot say whether a tree makes a noise when it falls, and noone is there to hear, you cannot say whether we live in a lorentzian ether or if we live in a “block” universe.
 
 
You seem to hold physics up as some sort of god, as though it is the pinnacle of truth and reality, but I’m afraid it is not.
 
May I not reply with a parable? The human mind, no matter how highly trained, cannot grasp the universe. We are in the position of a little child, entering a huge library whose walls are covered to the ceiling with books in many different tongues. The child knows that someone must have written those books. It does not know who or how. It does not understand the languages in which they are written. The child notes a definite plan in the arrangement of the books, a mysterious order, which it does not comprehend, but only dimly suspects. That, it seems to me, is the attitude of the human mind, even the greatest and most cultured, toward God. We see a universe marvelously arranged, obeying certain laws, but we understand the laws only dimly. Our limited minds cannot grasp the mysterious force that sways the constellations.
(Easily my favorite intellectual ever, Albert Einstein )
 
Physics is not Ultimate Truth. It is the feeble attempts of some strange, existential beings trapped in some-odd 200-pound lumps of water, carbon, and some other gooey stuff trying to understand the vast and enigmatic universe around them. It is the feeble attempts of a young child (who I would add can scarcely even comprehend speech) to find a pattern, or order, in a grand library of books of every kind in every tongue.
 
We build these models that help us to make predictions about the physical universe, and use math in these little toys to try to predict things - and to our utter astonishment, they work, they actually predict the behavior of the universe in certain experiments and tests.
 
But let’s not get carried away - reality is not our physical models. Electromagnetism is not Maxwell’s equations, and spacetime is not a pseudo-Reimann manifold. No, electromagnetism, to our best efforts and understanding, is well-predicted by Maxwell’s equations, and spacetime is well-predicted by that pseudo-reimann manifold - but they are not reality, reality simply is, and these models we use to predict it are nothing more than that - models of our own creation that bear this fantastic, most beautiful and amazing ability to predict this strange thing, reality, that we are awash in.
 
I don’t say this in order to downplay our accomplishments, or the intelligence of scientists - no, these models are astonishing in their abilities, and I think Einstein’s theories are perhaps mankind’s greatest achievement, I am deeply in love with them.
 
But rather, I say this because I’m troubled by your apparent high view of physics, as though it were ultimate truth and encapsulates all of reality. It is not. It is fundamentally limited by its own greatest strength; testability. A perfect understanding of all of physics could not tell you the undiscovered facts of Abraham Lincoln’s life. Even if you could know fully (as much as quantum uncertainty would allow) the entire universe, quantum randomness and entropy both mean that rewinding the picture you have would not re-create the exact past, since every quantum randomness is truly random. Even barring quantum uncertainties and entropic difficulties, quantum randomness means that the universe will never be exactly as physics tells - you will only be able to predict probabilities at best, and your future-pictures of each probability will be increasingly blurry with time at worst, due to quantum uncertainty. As much as I love Einstein’s mind, it appears he was wrong on this one part; God really does roll dice - or in this case, by “God” he means the order of the universe in a sense, not a personal being.
 
All this to say; physics is not everything. It is a fantastic model that gives us insights into how the universe works, but ultimately, the universe is its own separate thing, regardless of how we think of it, and physics is nothing more than our feeble attempts to be able to think of it (though I still think it as one of mankind’s most noble endeavors).
 
The facts of Abraham Lincoln’s life are not testable - they are not provable in the same sorts of ways that you can “easily” prove the predictions of physical theories. Thus, they are not physics, but they are, nonetheless, real as Lincoln himself was. Similarly, whether a tree makes a sound when it falls in the woods, whether the universe is a single 4-d “block”, whether the distinctions in-between past, present, and future actually exist or not, and whether quantum states “collapse” or the universe “decoheres” - none of these things are testable, they are not physics, but they are different ways we can view the universe, and thus in some sense remain “real”.
 
More to our point, beauty is not “testable”. What one person finds beautiful, another does not. You can measure if a person finds something beautiful - but you are measuring the viewer, not the scene of beauty, itself, thus you are not measuring “beauty”. I would say, nonetheless, that beauty is as real as reality itself, for it is a qualia I experience.
 
 
Now with that covered, our more immediate topic;
 
1: By the very definition and premise of the laws of Physics, everything that can interact with anything else can only do so via the laws of physics. This is just as fundamental and innate as 1 + 1 = 2.
2: A full philosophical zombie is completely physically identical to a human.
3: Thus, a full philosophical zombie cannot exist, because only physical things can interact or affect other physical things.
 
1 - that is your definition of physics, and perhaps we don’t actually disagree as much as we think. By this definition, then I would agree that qualia are “physical,” and thus a philosophical zombie would be “physically” different than a “human.”
 
The problem is, I don’t think this is the actual definition of physics. For this to be physics, this must be testable. However, the issue with qualia is that by its very nature, it is no more testable than “can you hear the sound of a tree falling when nothing exists to hear it?”
 
My definition of qualia, I think is actually well-described by Eeveeinheat’s - “the viewer of the movie that is your brain” - or, I admit perhaps it’s a bit different in that I also extent it to include “the experiences of the viewer that views the movie that is your brain”, but also include the viewer, since a more careful analysis, in my thought, leads to the conclusion that the two are inseparable. The qualia is the experience - therefore, the experience is the qualia. We know the qualia exists because of the experience, and so the two are fundamentally linked. This is the more general view of what qualia is, “Examples of qualia include the pain of a headache, the taste of wine, or the perceived redness of an evening sky.” ^[citation]
 
 
As for the speed of light and ether possibilities, I’m pretty sure that’s a no, as it’s not compatible with the standard model, quantum mechanics, and general relativity.
No, the notions of a Galilean universe are absolutely not compatible with QM, the Standard Model, or even Special Relativity, never mind General. The point is, could such a universe actually exist? What if, say, the Michelson-Morey experiment had, in fact, found an ether, and the reasons for black-body emissions were best predicted by some theory other than quantum mechanics? It’s a hypothetical universe. Science is an empirical thing that follows reality - not the other way around, so had reality been different, our theories would now be different, also.
CastorOil
Not a Llama - Happy April Fools Day!

Priorities
Yeah, I concur with this outlook.
 
Although, I fear this basically turns all interactions between peoples, as well as others’ sense of worth, on their metaphorical heads.  
Honestly, this train of thought can lead down to more terrifying and beautiful conclusions.
Eeveeinheat
Equality - In our state, we do not stand out.
Magical Inkwell - Wrote MLP fanfiction consisting of at least around 1.5k words, and has a verified link to the platform of their choice

@TheBipedalVisitor  
To be honest, the conversation is burned out to me. I most likely won’t continue unless they continue. I’ve already said all I can say, after all.
TheBipedalVisitor
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My Little Pony - 1992 Edition

My sides have taken a double-whammy because of how much the comments section of this image has blown up.  
But seriously, you people ought to consider moving this discussion to a forum section because of how in depth it’s getting.
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ᗡ: 📶 📡
Holy :P
 
I can literally think of nothing to say to or about the philosophy going on here XD
Eeveeinheat
Equality - In our state, we do not stand out.
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@SuperSupermario24  
The pillow pony started it.
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fluffy sylveon
*reads walls upon walls of text below*  
uh  
uh  
uh  
cats.
Fwelin
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Then by a similar argument, engineering, philosophy, video game design, biology, art – are all physics.
 
Yes, they are. Everything that exists or can possibly exist is a direct consequence of the laws of Physics, and the only reason we separate them into different fields is because we don’t have sufficient knowledge and computational capability to link them from the most fundamental framework, Physics.
 
[bq]If you don’t accept “I think, therefore I am,” then fine. I find it odd, much like rejecting the notion that 1 + 1 = 2, but I cannot argue innate logic. At some point a being has to be able to make rudimentary logical connections, and if they cannot, then there is not much else to be done.
Is there a universe in which 1 + 1 =/= 2? Can I experience a universe where I do not exist?[\bq]
“I think, therefore I am” is not innate logic like 1+1=2 is. There are many philosophical contentions about the validity of that statement, unlike the latter.
You can have dreams where 1 + 1 =/= 2, and while you cannot experience a universe where you do not exist, it’s theoretically possible to experience something that doesn’t exist (though that depends on your precise definition of “experience”.
No, but it can be reduced down to nothing more than mechanical actions. Any series of mechanical actions, no matter how complex, should only result in a philosophical zombie. A philosophical zombie is the logical, and only conclusion you can arrive at in a purely materialistic universe.
Where do you get the conclusion that they “should” only result in a philosophical zombie? By the base tenets of what Physics IS, I can conclude that such a philosophical zombie is not only not what “should” happen, but is completely impossible.
. Simply put, I want you to prove it. You complain of unprovability, but I don’t need to prove to you that my qualia exists – I directly experience. I see a laptop screen and feel keys under my fingers – I know I experience qualia, what I want proof for is that you can physically show why that being does more than act like it feels. Simply put, you cannot. You can only show an increasingly complex system of how something behaves, but you can never show it actually feels.
1: By the very definition and premise of the laws of Physics, everything that can interact with anything else can only do so via the laws of physics. This is just as fundamental and innate as 1 + 1 = 2.
2: A full philosophical zombie is completely physically identical to a human.
3: Thus, a full philosophical zombie cannot exist, because only physical things can interact or affect other physical things.
Unless you can prove that a full philosophical zombie can exist, then the conclusion that qualia are unphysical is unsupported.
Our brain isn’t a set of mutually independent intelligences, but it is, nonetheless, a physical system, and there’s no reason why any conceivable physical system should give rise to something that feels, rather than something that acts like it feels.
Again, without ANY basis, you claim that there is no reason that a physical system should give rise to something that feels. You have literally ZERO evidence that this is the case, other than gut feeling.
I imagine you think that if there’s no physical difference, then there’s no difference, thus there are only physical things – but this is a circular argument, and I reject the connection in-between “if there’s no physical difference, there’s no difference” in this particular case, because there is a difference. Namely, as has been explicitly stated, one feels, and one does not. You may make an appeal to a materialistic philosophy to refute this, but that appeal will not work, as I believe this particular case is an actual breaking point that disproves materialistic philosophy.
It’s not a circular argument, because the laws of Physics are defined as everything, even things we are not aware of. Just because we don’t know of said interactions does not mean they do not exist.
Any world view is nothing but a structure that strives to model reality as accurately as possible – to make sense of it – but exists, being built up around certain key axioms. Foremost of those key axioms, to me, is my own existence. I think it impossible for me not to exist, as I directly perceive my own existence. I feel, therefore, there is something that feels. To me, that is the first axiom of reality.
There are a number of philosophers to do not believe that “I think, therefore I am” is valid, but okay.
The second axiom is the physical universe I observe, because I know this one can be false. I can observe a universe that “isn’t there”, or more precisely, that is inconsistent with my other experiences of the physical universe. I quite love that, for some inexplicable reason, it follows predictable, logical, PERFECTLY consistent laws, and that I keep coming back to this one each time I wake up – or so my memory tells me. The elegance and beauty of its consistency and logic are the matter of a physicists’ study.
This is irrelevant, because even if the universe we are seeing is not the real one (like if we’re stuck inside a virtual reality realm of infinite detail), the laws of physics still describe how the true universe works, and still encompass everything, even if I personally cannot see said laws due to being stuck in a false universe. Thus, as the laws of Physics describe everything, “undetectable” qualia still do not exist, as even if I am personally unable to detect them, it means they are originating from the “true” universe, and are detectable there.
Regardless, there is not one iota of evidence that this is the case, and it is so incredibly unlikely that we can safely write it off until such evidence arises.
Nonetheless, I don’t believe, because I don’t know, if it is the only possible universe. Could we exist in a universe with a different cosmological constant? How about one where there is no speed of light, and light particles and such move along in an ether? How about one of the universes constructed in the circuits of our creation – one of finite entities and pure logic (it is a little disturbing how much our own universe could possibly fit such a description).
For the cosmological constant scenario, it is possible (depending on whether the value of it is fixed, or if it is probabilistic or dependent on the method of the universe’s origin), and might be happening right now if one of the quantum bubble theories (or another similar theory we haven’t discovered yet) of universe creation have any validity. As for the speed of light and ether possibilities, I’m pretty sure that’s a no, as it’s not compatible with the standard model, quantum mechanics, and general relativity.
I’m not exactly sure what you mean by the latter part.
That is yet another reason I hold physical reality as secondary. It is not fundamental, and I see no reason to assume that it is apart from its own existence. So I’m willing to accept that things may lie beyond it, because to me, reality extends beyond this universe. Things like mathematics and my own existence transcend it. Every night I experience a universe separate from this one – a universe where I could equally be presented with an equally logical “universe” – one where the waking world is death, for example, and nothing is known except that those who “wake” vanish from the world forever, and leave their avatars behind.
Why do you claim with certainty that the physical reality that we know is not fundamental, when every single piece of evidence humanity has ever found points towards it being fundamental? Something maybe being possible is not an excuse to say it is certain (like you are), likely, or even plausible. Gut feelings mean nothing when making conclusions about the world we live in and ourselves.
The worlds within dreams can never be even remotely close to as logical as the world we experience when we are awake, as even our amazing subconscious minds are not even close to powerful or intelligent enough to create a truly self-consistent world. There will always be imperfections, even if you don’t spend enough time there to notice them (or you don’t care to look). The same is not true of our waking world, which has always shown itself to be 100% self-consistent, despite billions of years of evidence to sift through. Only a truly fundamental universe could be fully self-consistent, and the fact we have never seen a deviation is in itself nigh-unassailable evidence that it is fundamental, contrary to your claim.
Your most basic reason to believe that qualia are undetectable is that you can’t imagine how systems could create qualia when they are as complex as our brains (despite being unable to conceive of something not disproving it). Your most basic reasons to believe that our universe isn’t fundamental are because it’s possible (no matter how ridiculously unlikely, to the point that it’s essential impossible), and because you think that dreams are no different in essence than our waking world (when they are but a pale shadow of what we experience when awake). That is extremely faulty logic.
Eeveeinheat
Equality - In our state, we do not stand out.
Magical Inkwell - Wrote MLP fanfiction consisting of at least around 1.5k words, and has a verified link to the platform of their choice

@Fwelin  
Cirrus has a different definition of qualia than me, I’ve come to realize. When I say qualia, I mean the experience of experiencing your brain. Nothing more, nothing less. It’s not some magical thing outside of physics but it is something that each person on their own can prove to THEMSELVES. “I think, therfore I am” is valid, but that same proof cannot be proven empirically because, by definition, qualia is subjective. Shame, really.
 
However, free-will is not linked to qualia. You can have qualia and have no free will. In fact, that’s most likely the case. The issue is trying to figure out what physical phenomena generates qualia. I personally think it has something to do with fields interacting (i.e. stuff touching), but I can’t even begin to speculate on the full mechanics behind it. But a hypothesis I have is that qualia does NOT retain memories of anything (because duh). You could lose all of your self of self but you qualia would remain constant. It’s just the viewer of the movie that is your brain. In fact, qualia is most likely intrinstic to each and every fluxuation in the quantum fields that govern reality. Every fluxuation has some qualia, but only with a brain can said qualia experience. Then when someone dies that qualia stays constant – as it never really changed – but it loses the experience of said brain.
 
Now the question is why does your qualia feel constant? Because your brain remembers it feels constant, so whatever qualia is in your head right now is experiencing that thought. So you could technically be losing and gaining qualia all the time and not even realize it because you can’t communicate with particles. A major consequence of this is that you could technically be part of your brain right now, then a few days later be a part of an ant or a rock – and your brain wouldn’t know because the communication between qualia is only one way. Heck, maybe due to the fact that everything was once a single point (and scientists predict there was a single superforce and all physics was in unison) and you think of time as a direction, that means all qualia is the same. That would solve the problem of death and non-existence, as “you” would technically be experincing everything in the universe at once. Just a wild idea.
 
I don’t think this is literally the case, in fact it could be 100% wrong, but so far it’s the only hypothesis that makes the most sense and solves every issue of why we experience at all. I hope I’m wrong, though. This idea seems horrifying.
Cirrus Light
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Sciencepone of Science!
The mind-body problem is a Physics problem, as Physics contains all interactions under [its] purveyance.
 
Then by a similar argument, engineering, philosophy, video game design, biology, art - are all physics.
 
If you don’t accept “I think, therefore I am,” then fine. I find it odd, much like rejecting the notion that 1 + 1 = 2, but I cannot argue innate logic. At some point a being has to be able to make rudimentary logical connections, and if they cannot, then there is not much else to be done.
 
Is there a universe in which 1 + 1 =/= 2? Can I experience a universe where I do not exist?
 
our brain is not a set of mutually independent intelligences…
 
No, but it can be reduced down to nothing more than mechanical actions. Any series of mechanical actions, no matter how complex, should only result in a philosophical zombie. A philosophical zombie is the logical, and only conclusion you can arrive at in a purely materialistic universe.
 
Simply put, I’m not buying the claim that
any being advanced enough to be 100% indistinguishable from a human via observing behaviors would automatically have qualia themselves
. Simply put, I want you to prove it. You complain of unprovability, but I don’t need to prove to you that my qualia exists - I directly experience. I see a laptop screen and feel keys under my fingers - I know I experience qualia, what I want proof for is that you can physically show why that being does more than act like it feels. Simply put, you cannot. You can only show an increasingly complex system of how something behaves, but you can never show it actually feels.
 
Our brain isn’t a set of mutually independent intelligences, but it is, nonetheless, a physical system, and there’s no reason why any conceivable physical system should give rise to something that feels, rather than something that acts like it feels.
 
I imagine you think that if there’s no physical difference, then there’s no difference, thus there are only physical things - but this is a circular argument, and I reject the connection in-between “if there’s no physical difference, there’s no difference” in this particular case, because there is a difference. Namely, as has been explicitly stated, one feels, and one does not. You may make an appeal to a materialistic philosophy to refute this, but that appeal will not work, as I believe this particular case is an actual breaking point that disproves materialistic philosophy.
 
 
Any world view is nothing but a structure that strives to model reality as accurately as possible - to make sense of it - but exists, being built up around certain key axioms. Foremost of those key axioms, to me, is my own existence. I think it impossible for me not to exist, as I directly perceive my own existence. I feel, therefore, there is something that feels. To me, that is the first axiom of reality.
 
The second axiom is the physical universe I observe, because I know this one can be false. I can observe a universe that “isn’t there”, or more precisely, that is inconsistent with my other experiences of the physical universe. I quite love that, for some inexplicable reason, it follows predictable, logical, PERFECTLY consistent laws, and that I keep coming back to this one each time I wake up - or so my memory tells me. The elegance and beauty of its consistency and logic are the matter of a physicists’ study.
 
Nonetheless, I don’t believe, because I don’t know, if it is the only possible universe. Could we exist in a universe with a different cosmological constant? How about one where there is no speed of light, and light particles and such move along in an ether? How about one of the universes constructed in the circuits of our creation - one of finite entities and pure logic (it is a little disturbing how much our own universe could possibly fit such a description).
 
That is yet another reason I hold physical reality as secondary. It is not fundamental, and I see no reason to assume that it is apart from its own existence. So I’m willing to accept that things may lie beyond it, because to me, reality extends beyond this universe. Things like mathematics and my own existence transcend it. Every night I experience a universe separate from this one - a universe where I could equally be presented with an equally logical “universe” - one where the waking world is death, for example, and nothing is known except that those who “wake” vanish from the world forever, and leave their avatars behind.
Fwelin
Solar Supporter - Fought against the New Lunar Republic rebellion on the side of the Solar Deity (April Fools 2023).

@Cirrus Light  
The mind-body problem is a Physics problem, as by definition, Physics is about literally everything. It is impossible for something to exist outside of the laws of Physics. The only reason that the mind-body problem is not a current topic in physics is because our current analysis and understanding of the brain’s complexity is not yet advanced enough to make any conclusions about it.
 
Your #1 and #2 are both subject to being fallible, and neither disprove the ability of science to be able to analyze, explain, and reproduce your “qualia”, as they are no more fundamental than our senses that connect to them. Also, your claim that it would be impossible to tell if you were in a dream is completely unprovable, which makes all conclusions make from said claim inherently flawed.
 
The Chinese Thought Room Experiment, while an interesting way to think about the concept of understanding, is not a useful analog for our brain, as not only does the experiment completely skip the methods by which said computer translates the inputs into outputs (which means that said computer could very well have what you call qualia), but the variation with the additional human further separates it from our brains, as our brain is not a set of mutually independent intelligences. Thus, there is literally zero evidence that we “shouldn’t” have qualia.
 
Well, of course you don’t see why electromagnetic connections lead to subjective feelings like that; we haven’t mapped and understood the brain’s connections even close to enough to get a true understanding of it. Saying “I don’t see how it’s possible for qualia to arise from electromagnetic connections” is not the same as “it is impossible for qualia to arise from electromagnetic connections”.
 
If they were wired differently in that way, then a sufficiently advanced analysis of their brain and thought patterns would be able to reveal it, making it, again, completely detectable and analyzable.
 
The philosophical zombie thought experiment is similarly flawed, as you are assuming that such a being can possibly exist, which is an unproven assumption. Since qualia arise naturally from sufficiently complex neurological or programatical connections, as the definition of physics asserts, then any being advanced enough to be 100% indistinguishable from a human via observing behaviors, they would automatically be mentally advanced enough have qualia themselves. Thus, philosophical zombies are an impossibility.
 
Again, I emphasize that the field of Physics describes EVERYTHING, including things such as subjective interpretations of senses. If something has an effect on the world (such a qualia affecting our perceptions), then the definition of Physics say that it can ONLY have said effect via those laws; thus, it is literally impossible for the unphysical to exist, including theoretical unphysical qualia.
 
Finally, no; Einstein was not talking about unphysical things such as metaphysical qualia, he was talking about the possibility that humans are not intelligent enough to figure out all of the laws of nature. Whether humans are smart enough to figure out all of the laws of physics is a completely separate concern to whether a complete set of physical laws exists (which Einstein was never in doubt about).
Cirrus Light
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Sciencepone of Science!
@Eeveeinheat  
I’m afraid the only equivalent to “I think, therefore I am,” is “I choose, therefore I can.” Much like qualia, if you simply refuse to acknowledge its existence, I cannot prove that it exists.
 
But I should mention, perhaps more convincingly, that it is a subset of qualia.
 
You can experience things that don’t exist, but you cannot experience experiences that don’t exist. By definition, those experiences exist because you experience them. The taste of a strawberry, the color red - the qualia of these experiences - and choice itself has its own qualia.
 
I could experience a thousand realities, and forget each one, then experience another anew, just as convinced through logic and reason that each was the only to ever exist, and never, in any of them, would I find proof of something that transcends them, any more than you should expect to find proof of the waking world - right now, as you dream. I would not find qualia, nor would I find choice, nor the taste of a strawberry or the color red. These are things that transcend physical reality, and I think it somewhat small-minded to disbelieve their existence merely because the physical world does or does not contain some echo of their being.
 
2 + 2 = 4 will remain true in every world, and so will these transcendent entities. Knowing 2 + 2 = 4 is a qualia, itself. It is pure logic. If someone refuses to believe that 2 + 2 = 4, you can prove it to him no more than putting 2 and 2 together and making 4. After all, it remains true in any physical reality you can imagine, thus it does not depend on this physical reality to be true. If we lived in a Newtonian universe with different laws of physics, it would remain true. If we lived in a universe without photons, it would remain true.
Cirrus Light
Economist -
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Helpful Owl - Drew someone's OC for the 2018 Community Collab
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Not a Llama - Happy April Fools Day!
Friendship, Art, and Magic (2017) - Celebrated Derpibooru's five year anniversary with friends.
An Artist Who Rocks - 100+ images under his artist tag

Sciencepone of Science!
@Fwelin  
What you’re talking about is the mind-body problem. It’s not a physics problem, it’s a philosophical one. The mere fact that we feel doesn’t prove that what you feel is there, but it does prove that you feel at all, and that in and of itself, is physically impossible.
 
My issue with trying to say qualia doesn’t exist is that there are two layers to reality as we experience it;  
  1. “I think, therefore I am”. More precisely, “I feel, therefore there is something that feels”. This is qualia.  
  2. We observe a physical world around us.
     
    However, #2 is as fallible as our senses. #2 leads us to believe whatever we dream of, no matter how insane the dream is. #2 is not a valid way to disprove #1. Therefore, the failure to identify #1 within #2 does not mean that #1 doesn’t exist, it just means that #2 is incomplete. Ergo, there is more to the universe than is physically observable.
     
    Another illustration of this is qualia’s existence. The Chinese Room thought experiment more or less proves that you can have something that interacts with the world as complex as a human mind, yet there is absolutely no physical reason why it should “experience” as we do. A careful enough study of the brain reveals it is much the same way. Simply put, we should mechanically carry out whatever actions we do without actually feeling anything.
     
    Yet here I am, experiencing, despite its physical impossibility.
     
    Simply put, there is no physical reason we should be aware as we are, yet we are. We should all be philosophical zombies - beings that interact in a complex way and act as though they feel, but do not. But we feel, and this is a direct observation.
     
 
Saying I think qualia exists, does not mean I doubt the ability of mapping electrochemical activity to thoughts and feelings. It means that I don’t see why that electrochemical activity should result in awareness - it should result in a machine that responds to its environment in certain complex ways, but nothing more. A furbee says it’s hungry, but doesn’t actually feel hunger - it should be nothing more than a complex furbee that reports many feelings, but doesn’t actually feel any of them.
 
Perhaps a good way to explain this is this; why do we see the color “red” as “red”? What if someone was wired differently to see “blue” where I see “red”? ie, their “red” cones made them see “blue”. So their entire life they learned to call it that, and it remains consistent, but in actuality, they see it differently.
 
Why does their pattern of neurochemical activity result in what they call “blue”, and what I would call “red”? Perhaps you could map out your own activity and learn theirs is reversed, but why do you see it as the way it is? And worse, if it’s fundamental to how the brain processes things and can’t be reversed, then that makes the question of why “blue” is “blue” even more fundamental.
 
 
This sort of disconnect should come as no surprise, though. Within a dream or hallucination, it is impossible to identify external reality. Yet that dream is fundamentally no different than #2 - the only difference is we retain our memories of the “waking” world more fully, and are thus able to paint a more complete and continuing tapestry, thus our investment as beings lies in the waking world (at least while we’re awake), and we identify some neurochemical activity in the brain, and assume this causes those worlds to happen.
 
 
Maybe I’m just confuddling it by re-stating it so many times, but I think another good way to explain it, is that qualia is what a “philosophical zombie” lacks. A philosophical zombie is a being that responds to a poke with an “ow”, and appropriately changes its computations that determine its actions and memories. It, like a furbee, says it’s hungry, but does not feel hunger, and neither did it feel that poke. It acts as though it feels, but it does not; it lacks qualia.
 
The reason why physics is completely ill-equipped to deal with the issue is that physics is an empirical field, and this is not an empirical problem - it is a more deeply existential problem bound in the nature of our being. You’re trying to describe something beyond physical with nothing but the physical. It is, I believe, what Einstein was probably referring to when he said “I prefer an attitude of humility corresponding to the weakness of our intellectual understanding of nature and of our own being.”
Eeveeinheat
Equality - In our state, we do not stand out.
Magical Inkwell - Wrote MLP fanfiction consisting of at least around 1.5k words, and has a verified link to the platform of their choice

because it’s hard coded into the theory that nothing but the physical laws therein influence said probabilities.
Fantastic point. Someone may be able to say the universe is ‘random’, but your physical matter is a result of that randomness, not the other way around. A neuron cannot determine an outcome, it can only go along for the ride.
Eeveeinheat
Equality - In our state, we do not stand out.
Magical Inkwell - Wrote MLP fanfiction consisting of at least around 1.5k words, and has a verified link to the platform of their choice

I take free will to be on the same level of qualia – something you experience and thus know exists, but isn’t physically provable (for that matter, every unique experience of qualia is that way – the feeling of pain, love, joy, confusion, surprise, excitement, etc. etc. etc.).
 
I disagree. You can prove to yourself that you are experiencing (I think, therfore I am) but you cannot prove to yourself that you are choosing. You could be along for the ride that is your brain, and since your brain is the one thinking you would experience what your brain thought. Which is everything. In short, you know for a fact you exist, but you don’t know for a fact what that existence entails.
 
Unless you can give me a logical method to self-prove your own free will (the free-will equivalent of “I think, therefore I am”), I will have to say this is wistful thinking on your part. Even probabilistic quantum mechanical properties are not proof of free will, as neurons are on the macro, not quantum, scale. They may use quantum properties, but as a whole the probabilistic nature gets washed out.